Dura-Pex vs copper pipe

   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #31  
Ok, I thought you were just using PEX to run to and from the solar collector, not as part of the collector itself. You should use copper for that purpose, because it has much better heat transfer capability, which by the way is another reason to use PEX for hot water lines in your house as the water will stay hot longer even if the pipe isn't insulated. Plus, as a solar collector the pipe should be in firm mechanical contact with the heat absorption plate for good heat transfer, which means copper as it is easy to solder to the plate.

I am not an engineer, but about 11-12 years ago I toured the Wirsbo factory, and saw how they spent a great deal of time and money testing this stuff, including the fittings before releasing it for general plumbing purposes. They have used it very extensively for radiant floor heating, but in the U.S. this was something new for plumbing, and they last thing they wanted was another PB (polybutylene or gray plastic pipe) fiasco. In case you don't remember, the PB industry went bankrupt because of the sudden and unexpected failure of the pipe and fittings in 1000's of homes, and it was taken off the market about 8 or 9 years ago as I recall.

Based on their accelerated aging and pressure tests, etc, they expect Wirsbo PEX to have a minimum life expectancy of 100+ years. That being said, not all PEX is equal.

Essentially, there are three methods of cross-linking the molecules within the pipe to create this incredible pipe, with 2 of the methods being more expensive and one being much cheaper. Wirsbo (now called Uponor) uses the peroxide method where the cross-linking occurs as the pipe is being extruded and while it is still in a semi-solid state. The other good method is the irradiation method, where the pipe is bombarded with electrons (I think) as it is being extruded. Both these methods result in app 85% of all molecules being cross-linked. The irradiation method is primarily used (at least it used to be) on pipe made in Israel and imported into the U.S.

The less expensive method is called the silane method. I don't know how it works, but supposedly it results in only about 65% total cross-linking of the molecules, which is still far superior to any other plastic pipe on the market. This is the vast majority of the pipe that is being sold under the Quest and Vanguard and other names for home plumbing purposes, and would most likely be the pipe that is sold in the home centers.

The best example of something that isn't crosslinked is one of those common opaque plastic water cups. These cups are made of polyethelene, but aren't cross-linked. Take one of these cups, and you will find that it is very easy to tear the plastic into linear strips down the side of the cup, but it is virtually impossible to tear the strips horizontally. The reason for this is because all the molecules are lined up parrellel to each other, which makes them separate easily in one direction, but not in the other. What cross-linking does is rearrange the molecules so that instead of being parrellel they are every which way, including side to side as well as for and aft, so the polyethelene now has the same strength in all directions.

In fact, PEX is essentially the same plastic as the standard black poly water pipe that is still commonly used for underground water service. The BIG difference is in the cross-linking. This is why anytime the black poly pipe fails it always splits in line with the pipe, not across it. I have used PEX for years, and have never, ever seen it fail.

One very neat thing about pex pipe is that it can be fixed if it is kinked. Try this as a test. Kink a piece of pipe by bending it back sharply on itself. It will kink just like any other piece of pipe, and remain that way. Now take a heat gun and heat the kinked section up evenly until it becomes very soft and then let it cool. The kink will be completely gone, and the pipe will be as good as new! If it is the opaque pipe it will turn almost clear when it is soft, while the blue and red pipe just get real soft. You will notice that the pipe just gets real soft and squishy, it doesn't melt like normal plastic does. It will burn if you get it too hot, but it doesn't melt and drip like wax, which is what the PB pipe does if you heat it.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #32  
I hope you all can help me with this. I never heard of PEX pipe until last week when I bought my Jimna chipper from Tommy at Affordable Tractor Sales. He has a plumbing contractor business also. I was telling him about how my pipes freeze at the farm. Last year I got caught caught off guard and my copper pipes broke in 15 different spots. There had been years of mild weather here in tx and I just got used to not shutting the water off. Man did I pay the price. Even when I do shut the water off I still get a break or two. The pipe is insulated.

He tells me that pex is very resistant to damage from freeze. Is this true? Is it worth it to buy the crimping tool to do just the underside of a small house? I see it's like 100.00 for just 1 size and I probably need both 1/2 and 3/4. It surprizes me how many of you all up north are installing copper over pex.

I get tired of going under the house with the copperheads and scorpions to fix broken pipes. I like the copperheads though. The take care of the mice. Also, by the time I discover a broken pipe water has poured out so I have to work on the pipes in mud and soldering up against the wooden sub structure isn't fun either.

Is pex my answer for freezing pipes?

Thanks, Mark
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #33  
Although not "freezeproof" per se, it is much more forgiving and does not burst as readily as rigid piping systems such as copper or IP.

You can purchase a crimping tool with multiple sized jaws; my local "Do IT Best" hardware store has several crimpers he loans out for PEX jobs.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #34  
A friend of mine had the PEX pipes in his new home freeze for 2 weeks solid until the weather warmed enough for them to thaw. No damage was done, and now, 4 years later, still not ill effects of the freeze.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe
  • Thread Starter
#35  
kmdigital said:
Ok, I thought you were just using PEX to run to and from the solar collector, not as part of the collector itself. You should use copper for that purpose, because it has much better heat transfer capability, which by the way is another reason to use PEX for hot water lines in your house as the water will stay hot longer even if the pipe isn't insulated. Plus, as a solar collector the pipe should be in firm mechanical contact with the heat absorption plate for good heat transfer, which means copper as it is easy to solder to the plate.
Sorry, more confusion. I have no plans on making PEX part of the collector. Copper is clearly better. I wanted to run the PEX from the collector to the storage tank. Looks like I could use it for the return line to the collector, but it cannot be used from the collector to the storage tank (propylene glycol gets too hot!)

Copper can be very challenging to work with in tight spaces and especially in retrofits (my project was a retrofit).
Bob
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #36  
I have a couple questions for ya'll. Does anyone know if the water flavor from the plastic goes away or does it effect the waters' flavor forever? Has there been any research on this stuff to see about when using it for hot water; if it could have any cancer causing properties. I have read stuff about plastic food containers being used to heat food in a microwave releasing chemicals that are considered to cause cancer. I know there are studies that show alot of stuff that causes cancer, and some may not be true, but the plastic releasing chemicals (when heated) , seems realistic and really causes my concern.
Daryle.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #37  
Doc_Bob said:
Sorry, more confusion. I have no plans on making PEX part of the collector. Looks like I could use it for the return line to the collector, but it cannot be used from the collector to the storage tank (propylene glycol gets too hot!)


Bob

Just how hot do you expect the supply water to get? Pex can handle water up to 200 degrees at 80 psi, and even hotter if the pressure is lower. It seems to me that something is wrong if your water is that hot coming from the collector, and you are losing a lot of efficiencies. Generally, you can regulate the supply water temperature by increasing the flow rates so that the water moves faster and has less time to heat up.

In general, for best efficiencies you don't want to have more than a 10-20 degree temp rise through any heat exchanger. Any more than that and your efficiency will suffer.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #38  
If the crimping system is anything like the crimping system used on qest pipe in moblile homes than I would be leary. I never had one come apart but have had dozens seep and cause a big enough leak that I would replace the joint with a compresion fitting. I realize that the pipe itself is different but not sure about the crimp connections.
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #39  
kmdigital said:
Just how hot do you expect the supply water to get? Pex can handle water up to 200 degrees at 80 psi, and even hotter if the pressure is lower. It seems to me that something is wrong if your water is that hot coming from the collector, and you are losing a lot of efficiencies. Generally, you can regulate the supply water temperature by increasing the flow rates so that the water moves faster and has less time to heat up.
QUOTE]

That's true until a power outage stops the pump & lets the collectors heat to 230F+ and then comes back on. It has happened to me. MikeD74T
 
   / Dura-Pex vs copper pipe #40  
I took my wife to go look at the PEX stuff at Lowe's yesterday. A new clerk says the stuff is great except you can't put the fittings inside walls!!! What good is this system if all the fittings have to be out in the open somewhere? OR, is this guy informed wrong?
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

Unused 2025 CFG Industry MX12RX Mini Excavator (A50322)
Unused 2025 CFG...
2016 WITZCO RG-35 RGN LOWBOY TRAILER (A51243)
2016 WITZCO RG-35...
CAT 963C (A47384)
CAT 963C (A47384)
2025 JMR 40in Single Cylinder Hydraulic Grapple Bucket Skid Steer Attachment (A50322)
2025 JMR 40in...
2016 Ford Escape AWD SUV (A50324)
2016 Ford Escape...
2016 CATERPILLAR 259D SKID STEER (A51242)
2016 CATERPILLAR...
 
Top