Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update

   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update #41  
Bird,
I recall Mark mentioned that his engine RPMs change as power is needed, whereas most HST units run at a continuos RPM, set by the operator. This may account for some of the most impressive fuel economy. All I know is I wish I could push my car hard for an hour and only use a gallon of fuel. That would be something like 65MPG. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update #42  
That could very well explain it.
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update
  • Thread Starter
#43  
I think that the best thing that can be done to improve the economy of a diesel engine is a turbo-charger. Though I've read some claims of increased efficiency due to increased turbulence, which makes sense, everybody agrees that the biggest reason is volumetric efficiency. A normally aspirated (non-turbo) diesel can typically draw no more than 85% of its volume of air in on the intake stroke (and it's usually closer to 80%). Anything below 100% is just wasted cubic inches. A turbo-diesel, on the other hand, can achieve whatever volumetric efficiency the engine can stand without blowing apart, but it's usually limited to about 170% or so. As for longevity, well designed turbocharged diesels are built to easily withstand the stresses at peak output, which they're rarely exposed to. So, while it's theoretically true that more heat means more wear, that's only really applicable if you're comparing a non-turbo-charged engine to the same engine with a turbo stuck on it...

With gasoline engines, the only way the cylinder will fire is if the air/fuel mixture is the correct ratio to allow for a spark-ignited burn, which means it has to be between 8 and 11 parts air to every part gas, (though it's technically possible to go as low as 15, but not really practical). Diesels, though, don't care about ratios because it's the temperature of the compressed air that causes the fuel to burn. So, at idle, a diesel can run fine at a 100 to 1 air/fuel ratio, while a gas engine still needs 15 or less. One reason the turbo can help diesel engines so much more than they can gas engines (though they certainly help both), is that there's no penalty with the diesel if there's more air than is necessary - as long as there's enough air, it'll run fine. If there's too little, it'll just smoke, and waste fuel, of course.

As for the engine burning less fuel if the engine speed varies, I'm not so sure about that. As I mentioned a long time ago, my L4310HST burned substantially less fuel than my L3-something GST did, despite having significantly more power. As much as I tout hydrostatics, I don't believe they're more efficient than gear transmissions. I attributed the improvement to the fact that, with the HST, I could set the engine at it's most efficient RPM and leave it there most of the time. Just my buck-ninety-eight's worth, your gph may vary... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update #44  
Mark, I'm continually impressed with your practical knowledge of engines, transmissions etc. You missed your calling I'd say. Should have been an equipment designer!

With all the advantages you cite for the turbo-diesel, how do you feel about two stroke turbo/supercharged diesels? Conceptually anyway, they should be that much more efficient yet. Other than the old Detroits and very large powerplants, they aren't very common though. Maybe you could build one for the EF /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Thanks, Rob! (Actually, I do consider myself an equipment designer - I just have to pay to do it instead of getting paid. But that's another story - and a sore point with me, even if it is fun - because I'd much prefer that the folks I buy stuff from do it before I get it... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Anyway, first off, I don't know nearly as much about 2-strokes as I do 4-strokes, although the trucking company my dad owned did have a couple of 2-stroke Detroits for a while.

Basically, the theory with two strokes is that they should be able to produce twice the power, because they're producing power with every other stroke instead of every fourth. But, if you think about it, that would only account for a power-to-weight-ratio advantage, because fuel is still going to be injected every other stroke instead of every four, too. So much for fuel efficiency advantages, right off the bat, and things go down hill quickly from there for the two-stroke. Still, hp-to-weight advantages are nothing to be sneezed at, especially with one of the diesel's biggest disadvantages being lower hp-to-weight ratio than gas engines, so further exploration of the issue is warranted, right? So here's the rest of my take on it:

In practice, the two-stroke can only produce about 1.5 times the power of an identically-sized four-stroke, for reasons I'll get to (up to 1.7, some used to claim, though maybe that's improved in the last twenty years, but I don't think so). The big reason, again, is volumetric efficiency. Part of a two-stroke's stroke is wasted because the air intake ports near the bottom of the cylinders effectively end the stroke right there, from a power production standpoint. So now we have a situation where we're chucking the same amount of fuel into an engine that's only producing 1.5 times the power - definitely a bad idea.

A few other issues: Twice the heat produced in the same size package puts stress on everything, and means it has to be designed heavier if it's going to last - there goes some of the only advantage we started out with, hp-to-weight ratio. (Also add bigger radiators and oil-coolers - same issue, same result.) The scavenging blower that starts forcing fresh air into the cylinders just before they reach bottom must be mechanically powered (a supercharger instead of a turbocharger) if it's going to be truly effective (and efficient at getting the burned gasses out of the cylinders), so there goes some more of your power. There's always going to be more unburned gasses left in the cylinder than with a four-stroke, so there goes a little more of your efficiency. The design of the cylinders inherently makes them harder to cool, increasing the heat stress, increasing the need for cooling, increasing the design weight, etc. etc. The lower combustion efficiency increases the amount of soot produced, which works on the oil, which increases wear. Add to all of this the fact that two-strokes become less and less efficient as the rpm increases. They're really only reasonably efficient at relatively slow rpms - they just sound like they're going fast. Now you have an engine that can't efficiently run as fast as a comparable four-stroke, so you have to design it bigger to compensate, and there goes some more of the only advantage we started out with. We could go on and on, but basically we have a classic case of reality making mince-meat of theory. Which is probably why you don't see many two-stroke diesels...
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update #46  
Mark, you should write a book! Very logical explaination and your comment about efficiency going down as RPMs go up substantiates two strokes in use for large, stationary powerplant apps. I always had a soft spot for those old Detroits, smoking and whining away. Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update #47  
Mark, my understanding is that even the first diesel designs were designed for turbo charger use. I do not know how accurate that statement is, but I suppose it could be true. Another thing that adds to that volumetric efficiency is the temperature of the air used for combustion. The cooler, the more tightly packed the oxygen. Thus, intercoolers were added. Have you added yours yet? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif There is a company near me that specializes in adding turbo's to diesels. I thought it would be interesting to see if it is possible, well out of the warranty period of course. Miller welding equipment uses Kubota, CAT, Perkins and Deutz diesels in the engine driven generator/dieaels. They tout the turbocharged ones as being the high altitiude performers, yet another reason all diesels should be turbo. How's that little TDI VW perfoming?
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update
  • Thread Starter
#48  
Turbocharging for diesels has been around a long time, but not quite since the beginning. And it's not a very good idea to just throw a turbocharger on an engine that wasn't designed for one, either, unless somebody else has done the experimenting, like the shop you're talking about. I remember that, when Mercedes first came out with its turbodiesel car, they sent a letter to all dealers explaining why retrofitted turbos were a bad idea and, of course, voided the warranty. The list of parts they changed between the newer turbo'ed engines and the older non-turbo versions was as long as your arm.

On the other hand, many engine manufacturers nowadays make turbo and non-turbo versions of the same engine and change very little between the two. However, and it's a big however, if they change pistons between them, you need to know that. Otherwise, you could try to use the same boost levels and wind up with much higher compression than the factory turbo models, and blow the thing apart. This is because the engines designed for turbo use usually have lower compression ratios than ones designed for use without them. You can usually still use a turbo on the latter, but you have to limit the pressures more.

No, no intercooler on my EarthForce yet, but it could benefit from one, as hot as it runs under full power. For that reason, I wouldn't dare raise the boost levels on it without doing some major enhancements to the cooling system. My '93 Dodge Cummins, for example, has been cranked up to the point where it'll overtax the cooling system if I push it too hard on a long climb with a heavy load - so I have to watch the gauge carefully. It's just not worth re-doing the cooling system, though, because it's already too hard on u-joints, motor and transmission mounts, etc. Right now, the cooling system is my safety mechanism - if it's getting hot, it's time to back off.
My VW TDI has over 300k miles on it and it's still getting 47 mpg.
 
   / Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update
  • Thread Starter
#50  
Hi Woodbeef - great to hear from you!

The Brush Brute is still going strong. I haven't really succeeded in knocking too much of the paint off it yet. Most of my buddies around here call the EarthForce "The Beast", so when I go tearing through the woods with The Brute on The Beast, they have a good time coming up with bad puns.

I still think the Brush Brute is pretty much indestructible, so it's a big hit, in my book.
 

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