Eating Humble Pie

Anonymous Poster · May 25, 2003

This morning my son Jake and I were coming back from the hen yard and as we passed the shed he stopped.

"Holy cow, would you look at that snake!"

I turned around and looked, and there about three feet from where I had just walked, was a four foot rattlesnake, his head poking up from in between some lumber.

"What do we do? What do we do?!!" I said. This is the biggest one I've seen yet this year.

"Go get your four ten and don't forget the sleeve, it's laying on the chest...or just get a couple of the birdshot shells."

I jumped the dang fence, ran across the yard, raced into the house and grabbed the gun and one shotgun shell. I don't know when it happened, but at some point during this mad dash, I made up my mind that I was going to shoot that snake, and not only that, I was going to do it well. Thus the need for only one shell.

I got back and neither the snake nor Jake had moved. I shoved the shell into the gun and cocked it, and brought it up to my cheek...

"You need to....you're gonna......wait if you'll just...." Jake was stammering

"Be quiet boy, I'm doing this!"

I was shaking like a leaf but I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

Bang!

Jake was real nice about it. Didn't say I told you so. Didn't make fun of me.

"I was just going to tell you, " he said real polite like, "that if you would take that board laying there and goose him with it, he would coil up and you would have a better target."

"I'm sorry, I'm sorry! I should have let you do it. I just didn't figure I could miss it this close. Wait......why didn't you take the board and goose him with it for me?"

"You were doing this....remember?"

When Fred gets home I'm gonna smack him, those were his words coming out of that boys mouth.

I was so proud of him for not rubbing it in. Then his freind Jamie came over and I learned that he had just been saving my humiliation for a better audience. I heard this passing from the bedroom to the bathroom......

"You should have seen her" giggle giggle "she was vibratin'...had buck fever over a four foot snake...missed the snake altogether but blew a nice hole in a two by four." Then the both of them laughing.

The snake got away, but I will have to live with this for who knows how long.

wroughtn_harv · May 25, 2003

Good for you Cindi. We might even say this miss by a Miss was a good thing.

I used to cuss the crows for eating with the chickens. Then one day I saw the crows driving a hawk out of the area. Now I think them crows are welcome to any table I set.

Around the shop I have plenty of wasps. Some folks complain but I don't really mind. You see I'm not fond of spiders. There's just something about a spider that will cause a reaction in me that isn't something I can be proud about. And wasps love spiders, eat them every chance the get. So instead of seeing a threat when I see a wasp I see a fellow soldier in the war against spiders.

About twenty years ago this weekend dad, son, and me went to northern Arizona to check out this canyon my dad had always talked about while I was growing up. It was a great trip, three generations, ten, thirty four, and a fifty seven year old doing a father--son--grandfather thing. We drove four hundred miles of highway. Then we went about eight miles with four wheel drive. And then we put on the back packs to go where we wanted to go.

Coming out involved coming up a steep canyon trail that involved many switchbacks. It was one of those nose to the trail due to the steepness of the incline. I was in the lead, my nature, not good at following.

Almost at the top and with my tail getting real close to being between my legs I all of a sudden heard a "kkkk--chick". The instant I heard it I knew exactly what it was. As I stood up I could see a black timber rattler attempting to coil for a strike just a couple of feet from my face.

I don't why but that particular trip I'd allowed myself to be talked into wearing a nine shot twenty two caliber revolver. It was a mistake I won't have happen again.

As the snake was doing it's defensive manuever I instinctively did mine. I drew and fired hitting him three out of three.

If I hadn't had the option of the pistol I'm sure I would have withdrawn far back enough to allow the snake to retreat. Having the weapon short circuited my common sense and disrupted my normal sense of decency.

The biggest difference between me and the snake was a big one. If it had bitten me it would only have been doing what a rattle snake does when threatened to point of last resort. Me killing it was the perfect example of a human being not being mature enough to understand all the options available.

And then there is the thing about remorse. I'm sure the snake and me share the same concept about remorse our encounter no matter which one of us survived. If it had prevailed I'm sure it would have felt bad about my stupidity.
And the fact that I prevailed in such a despicable way made me regret same stupidity.

Anonymous Poster · May 25, 2003

I feel very confident that had Jake shot at the snake it would be dead. But I didn't choose to try to shoot this snake due to any inkling that I might miss. I am not so gracious as you. I wanted to shoot it.

I have only ever regretted killing one snake in my life. A six foot rat snake. I still kick myself for destroying an animal that would never harm anything but a rat and I regret not educating myself to types of snakes before having killed this one. It was a waste. Had to be an old snake to get as big as he was.

I don't have the same respect for rattlers, coral snakes, copperheads, or water moccassins. They are deadly and I have kids and livestock to protect. In your case, you were in his territory, and I respect and understand your reaction. This one was in my territory and it was just by the sheer grace of God that I didn't get any closer to it than I did.

Good shot, by the way, even if you did feel bad about it. You did a lot better than I did. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

wroughtn_harv · May 25, 2003

I don't have the same respect for rattlers, coral snakes, copperheads, or water moccassins. They are deadly and I have kids and livestock to protect. 

How about a philosophical guestion here about that?

More people die from wasp--bee stings than they do from snake bites, about twenty five to five per year. The other thing that's interesting about snake bites is ninety plus percent of them occur when human beings mess with the snake.

So wouldn't you be ahead if you invested in teaching your offspring to avoid and respect poisonous snakes versus killing them? Cutting the chances of them being hurt by a snake, already minimal compared to other hazards, say like being backed over by the tractor, by ninety percent seems like a good investment to me.

It would be interesting to compare the hazards children face and our handling of their education about the hazards.

sendero · May 25, 2003

I'm gonna butt in here, hope y'all don't mind.

I have a reasonable number of cottonmouths at my place. I also have 3 sons, aged 10-13. They are even more 'city boys' than me.

The thing about a cottonmouth is that it does not behave like most snakes. They are not afraid of, and do not seek to avoid people as most snakes will, instead they will come take a look.

We have tall grasses near the pond and the pond is often the center of the kids' outdoor activities there. And whether it be a realistic worry or not, I don't want to have one of my kids get snake bit.

I have killed 2, and I will attempt to kill any more I see.

Now, my shed seems to attract wasps, some yellow jackets and some darker ones that look like dirt-dobbers but I haven't found any nests. They like to find a crack between the steel panels and soon they are flying around inside. I didn't know they ate spiders - they didn't bother me much anyway but now I'll just leave them be...

Anonymous Poster · May 25, 2003

Poisonous snakes bad,kill them every time one presents itself for that purpose,nonpoisonous snakes good,don't kill them.Snakes got very little brains so I wouldn't rely to much on the way they think. RICHARD GAUTHIER

Anonymous Poster · May 25, 2003

( There's just something about a spider that will cause a reaction in me that isn't something I can be proud about. And wasps love spiders, eat them every chance the get. So instead of seeing a threat when I see a wasp I see a fellow soldier in the war against spiders. )

But spiders--some species anyway--eat cockroaches. In Florida there is a long legged monster that just loves to live in the house with you. He won't bother you. In fact, he'll do everything in his power to stay away from you. But should he see a cockroach, he'll run that varmint down and suck it dry.

So before you get ready to stomp that arachnid, remember, you may be about to kill a fellow soldier in the war on la cucaracha.

Now if they would just eat fire ants . . . . .

SnowRidge

19th_VA · May 26, 2003

There must be some connection between tractors and snakes--someone help me out? Seems to be a popular topic these days!

wroughtn_harv · May 26, 2003

The other discussion in the other forum is about guns. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Snakes happen to be something some folks feel comfortable to use as target practice. After all, they're ugly, don't squeal out like a puppy would, and anyone brave enough to shoot one doesn't have the courage to look one in the eye as it's dying to see if it hurts. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

Unless a spider has a characteristic of a poisonous spider that is easily recognizable, such as a black widow etc, even in the house I leave them alone. In fact there's a big old brown spider about the size of a silver dollar that lives somewhere very near my computer station.

I see it early in the mornings, and I keep waiting for the day when he runs up my bare leg and we have to have it out. As long as he stays off of me, he is welcome. Not only do they kill roahes, as stated before, but their webs, when left intact will catch tons of mosquitos that manage to find their way into the house. Now I've given you a clue as to how the corners where my ceilings and walls meet look. I do not take away the webs. In the city I would have, not here. Especially not in the summer.

If I see a snake cut across the pasture fifteen feet away from me, heading the other way, I don't care what kind it is, I leave it alone. But if I find it near the house, or near the shed, or the hen yard then if it's at all within my power, it's going to be a dead snake. They are attracted by chicks and eggs and mice that are also attracted to the shed by spilled feed, so it'a constant battle. My daughter lost her dog to a coral spider. Poor thing. It was a gruesome way to die. I called the vet but he said it was too late to help her.

I'm going to post another story at the end of this post about Dixi, our snake killing dog. I miss her desperately. Dixi killed any kind of snake, she was not picky. But since she's gone, it's up to us to deal with these snakes. As for wasps and bees and so on, same thing as with my brown spider. As long as they leave me alone, I will leave them alone. But if one of their little commandos decides to attack me when I'm going about my business not bothering him, then the whole dang nest is going to pay if I can find it.

Dixi.....

We buy and raise baby chicks, and I enjoy watching them grow, keeping tabs on their progress and just generally doting on them. Once they're grown, I sell them as mature laying hens.

My last bunch included forty or fifty chicks which I had had for about six weeks, meaning that they were about six or eight inches tall when the chicken snake found them.

I went out one evening to feed and I found a snake about four feet long curled in the corner of the chick coop. He had entered through one of the octagonal holes in the poultry netting and consumed one of my baby chicks. The telltale bulge about halfway down his body was my first clue. The cuts and scrapes around this bulge was my second clue. Once he had eaten the baby chick he’d been too fat to get back out through the small hole he had come in, and had cut himself to ribbons finding that out. He finally gave up and was lying there peacefully waiting to digest his dinner.

I understand that snakes have a right to live, and have to eat and all that, but I was livid. Despite my fury, I calmly called to my dog Dixi. Dixi is a pointer mix and the most ferociously effective snake killing dog that I have ever had the pleasure of being acquainted with. She lived by the theory that a good snake was a dead snake and for the most part I tended to agree with her. I lifted the snake from the cage by the tail and Dixi went completely wild, barking, jumping, and basically foaming at the mouth.

I tossed the snake away, and as I said, a snake is a living thing and I didn't particularly want to watch what was about to happen, so I went back to feeding my surviving chicks. While Dixi circled the snake performing her ritual, determining if this was a biting snake or not, I guess, my father-in-law, who was visiting from Texas, wandered up and asked what was going on. I explained about the snake and the baby chick and how I had left the revenge part up to Dixi. He eyed the snake and then glanced at the little chickens.

"That snake ate one of those chickens?" He asked.

I nodded.

"No way, they're too big" he said.

"Way" I replied. "Just watch."

Dixi was in her glory. She was at the center of attention doing what she was best at. Snake killing. I could tell by the tenor of her barking that she had found the sweet spot. That little window of opportunity that allows her to grab the snake before the snake grabs her, and she struck.

She grabbed the snake just behind the head and whipped it back and forth four or five times so quickly that the action was a complete blur. Some vital part of the snake went flying past my head and I ducked. My father-in-law, watched with his mouth hanging open.

"That's the dangdest thing I ever saw." He breathed.

The snake was clearly dead, but Dixi still guarded it. She circled and growled and nipped at it even though it had long since stopped moving. As I suspected, the snake was pretty banged up, including, but not limited to it's digestive area. After a bit of maneuvering, I found what I was looking for. A rip in the snake’s skin where the baby chick could be seen. I dug around and pulled it out. It was a black giant baby, dead of course, but completely intact, about six to eight inches long. I held it up for my father-in-law to examine.

"Well, I'll be." was all he could think to say. "I never would have believed it."

I lost Dixi not too long after that to a fast truck with an inattentive driver and I mourn her like I would a lost child. If there was a snake around Dixi knew about it and killed it before I ever saw it. Our pastures were always littered with the remains of rattlesnakes, black racers, rat snakes, chicken snakes, and once even a coral snake.

Dogs like Dixi are not trained, they are born with the knowledge and courage to do what Dixi did best. She began killing snakes as a puppy. A clumsy, stumbling, puppy. Being dumb humans we tried to discourage this behavior until we realized that this was not a voluntary thing with her. Dixi had to kill snakes, it's what she lived for, and no other dog can ever replace her.

I don't know why she was the way she was, we didn't train her to do what she did, but she never let a snake live if it was within her range of vision, and I didn't figure it was up to me to try to change that.

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

A puppy won't squeal out when you shoot him,if you shoot him or her right between the eyes with a 22 magnum,of course I'm just kidding........? RICHARD GAUTHIER

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

I can't bring myself to put puppies and snakes in the same category. No comparison. But if I'm attacked one day by a four foot puppy that wants to kill me, I'll shoot him too. If I can hit him, which I doubt.

It's not that I don't care about a snake's feelings. It's that I know he won't care about mine, and he can kill me just as quick as...well somebody around here can kill him.

You can only avoid them for so long. If you want to put a brain in a snake and suggest that he has feelings then I would a lot rather have him go back and tell his buddies not to go to that crazy ladie's house cause she's gonna try to kill ya, than go back and say, this is a great place, plenty to eat, think I'll move in. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

( I can't bring myself to put puppies and snakes in the same category. No comparison )

I agree with you........100% plus

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

You tell em,CINDY. RICHARD GAUTHIER

JDGREEN4ME · May 26, 2003

I grew up in the mountains of PA with three younger brothers. We were all taught to respect wildlife and how to use firearms properly. Not to be Non-PC be we were also raised that in our yard the only good rattlesnake was a dead one. And just for the record I had the courage to look them in the eye...wanted to make sure they were dead. Not saying what I did was right but not going to apologize either.

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

Fred killed a timber rattler in SC last year and if this story is true then it's the creepiest thing I ever heard, and it reinforces my deep dislike for snakes. I have no reason to believe it's not, I know all the guys at the hunt club and could verify it in a second, but Fred and Jake both swear it's true.

Fred almost stepped on it. It was between six and seven feet long, sunning itself at the base of the tree where Fred's stand was. True. The skin is in Jake's room.

I just went and counted.....seventeen rattles, hanging in the living room off one of the deer racks. The only reason Fred didn't get bitten, is because the snake was stretched out, and curled half way around the tree, and had no time to coil up before Fred shot it. Yeah he could have scared it away and gone on up into his stand, but then he would have had to get down at some point, wondering all the while where the snake was.

The way Fred tells it, he shot it twice. The resultant damage left the snake with no fangs, or anything else in that general physical vicinity. He didn't think the other guys would believe it so he brought it back with him. Had to put it in a empty corn bag as it was still writhing around. When he got back to the house he spilled the snake out on the ground, still slithering around, still rattling and coiling, and it tried to strike a half dozen times. With no head.

He put it back in the bag, tied it with a string and went inside to supper and to bed. The next morning Jake asked Fred what he was going to do with it, were they going to eat it? Fred said he had considered it, initially, but the dang thing wouldn't hold still long enough the night before to skin it, and Fred said he would probably just take the rattles and the skin.

"It's bound to be dead by now."

They went out there to do just that, and found the bag still moving. Dumped the snake out and he tried to strike again, not only that, but tried to slither away and had to be 're-caught'. Fred says it took four guys to hold it down, to remove the rattles and skin the snake. Once SKINNED the snake was still moving and still tried a feeble half strike.

Now some may view this as a gruesome tale of torture, and they may be right, but my position on it is this. A venomous snake, to me, is an evil creature. What else could live that long and still be trying to kill, unless it was nothing more than pure unadulterated meaness and hatred wrapped up in a slimy slithery skin.

Some may cry 'self defense! It was trying to protect itself!' Well, I find myself not really caring one way or the other, and I'm usually a pretty humane person. I know most of the snakes around here that are harmless and I wouldn't harm them, but if this snake had bitten Fred, I know that based on where he was, he would not have made it back alive.

Snakes have routines and regular haunts, just like people, and he and Fred had chosen the same one. Fred won. That may sound harsh or mean, but I think it is just a fact of life. Kill or be killed, survival of the fittest. Whether it's beast against beast or man against beast.

I'm uncomfortable with the 'trophy taking' aspect if the whole deal, but there again, is another thing. When someone comes to the house and remarks on the rattles, they are taken down, handled carefully, passed around and the story comes forth, Fred with his face so serious, Jake solemn and and silent. According to Fred, the rattles hanging in the living room for all to see are a gentle reminder never to take the high grass lightly. The skin hanging in Jake's room, stretched across the wall at the foot of his bed, is a none too subtle reminder to walk the woods with care when he goes off hog hunting by himself.

The snake was sacrificed. I have grown comfortable with it's 'parts' hanging about the house. I understand the logic behind it. I don't always understand everything Fred says and does but usually with time comes understanding. He's taught Jake well, he spotted the snake yesterday and had to point it out to me. I don't care if what he did is considered right or wrong or politically or environmentally correct. I know in my heart that he is keeping himself and my boy safe. That's all I need to know.

Inspector507 · May 26, 2003

A headless snake that keeps trying to strike, just ain't been shot enough times...IMO /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anonymous Poster · May 26, 2003

I have killed snakes by using axes/pitchforks/run over them on the road,backed up and spun my wheels on them/locked my brakes and skidded on them/I have used the brush hog on them/siced my dog on them and let him kill them,I have even shot them before and it was not target practice....I even doused one with gas one time and tossed a match on him. No,I don,t like snakes,I have been stung many times by was wasps/bumble bees/yellow jackets and hornets...never got sick once and never died once. I have burned bees/hornets nests and shot hornets nests with high powered rifles,I have brushogged some bees/hornets nests (not on purpose though) never been snake bit though........

Bird · May 26, 2003

Speaking of nearly stepping on a rattler reminds me of the rattles my Dad had from the time I was 6 or 7 years old. All his life Dad liked hunting and eating squirrels, so he started taking me with him when I was 5 years old, and by the time I was 6, he'd have me walking the opposite bank of the creek because he knew I'd make enough noise, and he'd be quiet enough, that the squirrels would move around to his side of the trees, making an easy shot for his .22 rifle.

Then one day when he crossed back to my side of the creek without having fired a shot, he showed me the rattlesnake rattles he had. I asked why he hadn't shot it and he said he was walking along, looking up in the trees, when he stepped on it. He said when he felt it, he just stood still, looked down, and was standing on it so close to its head, it couldn't strike him, so he set his rifle down, picked up a big stick, and crushed its head.

If that had been me stepping on a snake, I'd have probably jumped so high the snake couldn't have reached me. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif And now I'm wondering what became of those rattles because I know they were still laying on the TV 8 years ago when I moved them up from the coast to be closer to us. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif