EBay Sniping

   / EBay Sniping #1  

OkeeDon

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Jul 4, 2003
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1,790
In the "poll" about EBay use in another thread, I said, among other things, "use sniping software." Others have mentioned it. But, Roy Jackson said, "One thing I do not like about ebay is the programmed bidding (puts that last minute bid in so one has no time to counterbid)."

Do you use sniping prgrams? What do you think of them?

Personally, I use Auction Scoop, which I purchased in the download version for $14.95. I have also used fee-based sniping services in the past, and the $15 is a good deal compared to recurring fees. Because I have a high speed cable connection and my computer is always on, the software based on my own computer works just as good as the services. I have won several items at the last second by not tipping my hand early. More importantly, because of the automation, I have lost some bids that went higher than my pre-set limit. If I had been bidding personally, I would have been sorely tempted to increase my bid, and probably pay too much -- or at least more than I had previously been willing to pay -- for the item. It imposes discipline on me.

For those not familiar, when using a sniping program, one loads the item number into the program, set the top amount you're willing to pay, set the amount of time before the acution ends to place the bid (usually 5 to 8 seconds), then forget about it. At the appropriate time, the program makes your bid. If there are other proxy bids, EBay's proxy bidding system quickly (almost instantaneously) determines who has the top bid. If yours is higher you win; if the other guy's is higher, you lose.

From a buyer's perspective, most people bid too early, bump their bids in small increments, and often get caught up in the emotion of buying and go too high. That's good for the seller. Using sniping software, you're a stealth bidder until it's almost too late for anyone else to change a bid and sneak it in. That's good for the buyer. Also, as I mentioned, you give control of your emotions to the program, and never pay more than you predetermined it was worth to you. Also good.

From a seller's perspective, it depends on the circumstances. If typical bidders have made small increments in their bidding, or have placed a low proxy bid not far above the current bid, the the sniper hurts them, because he did not participate in helping to boost the price. But, if one bidder has entered a high proxy bid, the sniping software can quickly force the bid up to much higher levels than were previously seen. Without the sniper, the proxy bidder would get it for less, often far less. That's good for the seller. In my experience, I've seen it happen both ways.

The sniping programs do not guarantee you will win a bid; you will only win if your sniping bid is higher than any proxy bids. That's always good for the seller, because it always raises the bid at least one step above all the bids that have been placed, if the sniping bid is higher. If the sniping bid is not higher, then it's as if it had never been placed. I've particpated in some auctions, however, where someone's proxy bid and my sniping bid were both far higher than any other bids, and the price jumped dramatically in the last 3 seconds. I've won some of those, and lost some.
 
   / EBay Sniping #2  
If I want an item, I make my bid personally with about 1-2 seconds left in the auction. I have won many an auction this way and rarely get "out-sniped".

As a buyer, this is the way to go, as a seller you hate it. You much rather have a bidding war instead.
 
   / EBay Sniping #3  
I thought this would be an opportunity for me to post something I have in the past regarding sniping...

If you like to pay more than you have to on an item, place your largest bid early and drive the price UP through the proxy bidding. However, if you want to save money, take up sniping.

Example:

Scenario #1
Imagine a typical 7-day auction: It's Jane and Clyde all the way to the end! Jane opens the bidding on Day 1 for $50 while her Proxy (MAX) is $110. Clyde finds the same auction the next day and decides that $100 is all he wants to pay for the item. Clyde keeps bidding up the price by $10 until he gets to $100 and through the proxy bidding, Jane is still high bidder now with $102.50 (Bid increment of $2.50). No one else bids for the rest of the auction and Jane wins the item for $102.50.

Scenario #2 - Sniper
Clyde found the auction just like in the first example and so did Sniper Jane. Because Jane is now a Sniper, she does not open the bidding. Now Clyde opens the bidding with $50, and he sits on the auction as high bidder all week, Sniper Jane went on with her life. Sniper Jane is no fool and, she waits for the end of the auction. With 10 seconds remaining, Sniper Jane enters her maximum bid of $110. She wins the auction for the $52.50 (the minimum bid increment imposed by Ebay's system) over the $50 because by waiting until the end of the auction to bid, she offered Clyde no opportunity to come back and bid again. Sniper Janes gets the same product but SAVES $50!
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#4  
Absolutely correct, and there is also Scenario 3 and 4:

As in Scenario 2, Clyde opens the bidding, but he places a proxy bid of $100. Sniper Jane waits until the last second, and places a bid of $110. She gets the item for $102.50, the same as in Scenario 1. The buyer benefits from the sniper the same as he does from the bidding war in Scenario 1. Sniper Jane doesn't save anything, but she isn't hurt, either, because the bid is still under the $110 she was willing to pay.

In Scenario 4, Clyde's proxy bid is for $125. Sniper Jane posts her last second bid of $110, and the price rises to $112.50. Jane loses the bid, but didn't spend more than she wanted to spend. Clyde pays more, but didn't pay the $125 he was willing to spend. The seller gets more than if Sniper Jane never showed up, which would have been $50.

Bottom line -- In all scenarios, the buyer either benefits or doesn't get hurt. In Scenarios 1, 3 and 4, the seller benefits. In Scenario 2, the seller might be upset, but he got $2.50 more than if Sniper Jane had not sniped.

I don't find anything wrong with sniping.

Gatorboy, we really shouldn't be telling this stuff to others... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#5  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If I want an item, I make my bid personally with about 1-2 seconds left in the auction. I have won many an auction this way and rarely get "out-sniped".)</font>

I tried this too, but often I got distracted or called away, forgot about the auction until a few minutes too late, or otherwise missed the opportunity. The $15 for Auction Scoop takes over for me -- it never forgets or misses the opportunity.

If I had a slow internet connection, or was concerned that my cable connection would be broken as the auction ends, I would sign up for one of the online sniping programs. But, I don't like the fees, and I don't like that I have to give them my username and password so they can place the bid.
 
   / EBay Sniping #6  
I have used the sniped a couple of auctions successfully and lost one where the final price was way above what I had put in as my sniping price. I have a dial up connection at home so trying to get a bid in at the last second is almost impossible.
 
   / EBay Sniping #7  
What happens if two people are bidding on the same item, and both have the same sniping service, waiting to the "last second" to bid. One has to be favored over the other by the service, seems to me.

Also, how does E-bay's proxy bidding work with outside 'sniper' services? Does E-bay have the 'final' split second bid in the end, and prevail over all other 'outside' snipers? Seems that would have to be the case, if E-bay keeps honest about it and true to its 'members'.

Lots of interesting thoughts. I am bidding on some things now, and so far, have managed to do okay. Hard to know just when that 'last second' bidding must take place though.
 
   / EBay Sniping #8  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Does E-bay have the 'final' split second bid in the end)</font>

Not really sure of your question here. eBay does not bid on auctions. If the last bid does not exceed someone's current max bid price, they can't be high bidder, so they won't win the auction.
 
   / EBay Sniping #9  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have a dial up connection at home so trying to get a bid in at the last second is almost impossible. )</font>

The amount of data that gets transmitted on a bid is very small -- I doubt that having dial-up is that much of a disadvantage. I won many o'auction before I had my high speed cable service.
 
   / EBay Sniping #10  
<font color="blue">
( Does E-bay have the 'final' split second bid in the end )
Not really sure of your question here. eBay does not bid on auctions. If the last bid does not exceed someone's current max bid price, they can't be high bidder, so they won't win the auction. </font>

I thought e-bay 'managed' their proxy bid service, which was their own internal form of 'sniping' that is being discussed. I could put a $100 lid on my bid, but it would only be used to top other actual bids or proxy bids. I could be wrong on my understanding of the e-bay proxy bidding, but it seemed pretty straight-forward.
 
   / EBay Sniping #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I could put a $100 lid on my bid, but it would only be used to top other actual bids or proxy bids. )</font>

Sniping is just a term describing WHEN the bid gets placed. A bid that is placed in the first minute of an auction is treated the same way it is at the end of an auction. If the bid coming in does NOT exceed the current high bidders MAX bid, it will increase the current high bid appropriately.

So, if the high bid is sitting at $50 and you are the high bidder and had placed a MAX price of $100 -- and at the last second somebody bids (snipes) with a bid price of $75, you will win the auction.
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#12  
beenthere, it's almost impossible for us to comprehend the scale of time with the computers. Think of each second as an opportunity to make a thousand corrections. The outside sniping services have direct T1 connections to the EBay computers. But, even they recommend not getting closer to the end than about 3 seconds. In the ensuing time, there could be hundreds, if not thousands, of changes.

Even my inexpensive little program has the ability to go online with EBay and make sure all the URL's are up to date. It also has the ability to synchronize your computer clock with atomic clocks, and posts both your time and EBay time so you can check synchronization. It also has the ability to start a dial-up process ahead of the sniping bid so you will be logged on to EBay at the proper time, so you don't have to leave a dial-up connection open.

EBay's proxy server will always examine every bid to see if there is a proxy bid that is higher, and will place the proxy bid. One way to defeat snipers is to simply enter a proxy bid high enough to beat anybody else. This could be a bit foolish if there are a lot of "normal" bidders. Proxy bidding can raise the price of an item REALLY FAST! That's why I prefer sniping; no one has any indication that there's another bidder lurking, and intermediate bids do not boost the price towards my bid, as proxy bidding does.

Once, before I was sniping, I found a part I really needed -- it wasn't available anywhere else that I could find. I simply entered a proxy bid of $1,000 for an item worth about $50, then sat back and hoped that no one else was as foolish. It worked, I got it for $75 and was happy to pay the premium, but it was very risky.
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Continuing Gatorboy's scenarios, let's look at EBay's proxy system.

Assume an item has a starting bid of $100 and a bid increment of $2.50. Clyde opens the bidding with $100, and waits to see what happens. Bonnie places a bid of $200, and is the current high bidder with $102.50, and $97.50 held in reserve by the proxy server. Clyde logs back in, tries $105, and sees it jump immediately to $107.50. He figures out that someone has placed a proxy bid, so he decides to do the same. He enters $125, and sees it immediately jump to $127.50. He keeps bumping it, and it keeps climbing, until it finally gets over $200, the limit of Bonnie's proxy bid. Clyde is now the highest bidder. And, there's still 6 days and 23 hours left in the auction! By now, Clyde has a $202.50 emotional attachment to the item, and keeps increasing his bid any time anyone bids over him. He's getting smarter, so to save time, he starts using proxy bidding, also. He enters $300. Bonnie, with a $200 "investment" in the item in her head, enters $400. The item is suddenly up to $305.

Sniper Jane is out of the picture in this scenario. She set up her sniping program to $300, her maximum she was willing to spend, and has no emotional attachment to the bidding process. At the appointed time, her sniping software tries $300, EBay sees there is already a higher bid, and ignores Sniper Jane's bid.

Sniper Bob decided the item was worth $350 to him. His bid is entered at the last second and accepted as higher than $305, but Bonnie's proxy bid tops him, and the bid is at $355.

Sniper Mary set up her program for $500. Almost at the same time as Sniper Jane and Sniper Bob, her bid is entered. It beats the current bid of $355 and is accepted. At this point, it becomes a simple proxy bid, just like Bonnie's, and the proxy server lets them fight it out until Sniper Mary wins at $405. For the computers, the last 2 or 3 seconds is plenty of time for all that to happen.

Now, consider if Mary had entered her bid of $500 as a proxy bid, earlier in the auction. Bonnie and Clyde, both with emotional "attachments" to this auction that they have become committed to, keep bumping the bid until it is at $510 or more. And, there is still 6 days and 22 hours left in the auction!

Sellers love this to happen, but buyers usually get hurt. things can quickly get out of hand in an auction, especially if you are the type who feels like you have a stake in the item once you have bid. Emotions are a total no-no in auctions, but most people forget that in the heat of the moment.
 
   / EBay Sniping #14  
I bid at eBay quite often. my last purchase was for a Nikon 8700 camera outfit. I don't sit in front of the computer to place my bid and I never bid till the last seconds, there is no sense in driving up the prices. I use www.auctionsniper.com it's very effective and the charges are insignificant compared to what I save. If a person places a bid at eBay and does not win the auction then it is because of their own action not because of a snipe bid. You bid too fast or you didn't bid high enough. When I sell at eBay I welcome all types of bids.


The smart bidders always wait till the last seconds to make their move. It always boils down to this, how bad do you want it?
 
   / EBay Sniping #15  
That's helpful on the possible scenario's, of bidding and emotion. My emotion is usually "cold feet" when I see that I am high bidder.

I was just outbid on an item that has a few hours to go. I have been trying to reconstruct the bidding, from the bits of information e-bay provides.

There were about 7 bids in on an item, starting at $49.91, and min. bid of $1.00.
At $62, I put in a proxy bid of $72.51, and had the top bid posted of $71 (guess someone had a proxy or snipe in for $70). After about an hour, I was outbid, and now the top is $73.51 (suggesting that someone was feeding a penny at a time bid until they found out what was $1 over my proxy).

The bid times posted are as follows:(my dollar amounts)
3-30 11:49 $73.51
3-30 09:21 $71.00 (mine after $72.51 proxy bid)
3-29 23:16 $62.00
3-30 00:39
3-28 04:11
3-26 04:31
3-25 20:05 $49.91

Interesting.
My previous point was that e-bay proxy bids would (should?)always take priority over any last, split-second bid from outside, as long as the proxy amount was higher than any outside "last" bid. How could it be any different? The e-bay proxy, if it is higher than any outside sniper bid, should prevail, no matter how infinitesimally small the time is (IMO).
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#16  
A proxy bid will always prevail, no matter how late the snipe bid -- because the EBay computer is communicating internally, and thus always faster than something from outside. Besides, if two bids are identical (say you enter a proxy of $300 and I enter a snipe of $300, and we are the only bidders), the earlier bid will always win. In that case, you're better off being the proxy bidder instead of the sniper. That's one of the reasons why I tack an odd amount, like $0.63 or $3.52, onto the end of my bid. Non-thinking bidders (the vast majority on EBay) will most often bid round amounts, thus increasing the chances of a tie. Odd amounts don't guarantee you'll win, but they reduce the chances of a tie. That's important if you're the sniper -- you don't mind losing to a higher bid, but just when you're patting yourself on the back for being so smart as to snipe, you'd hate to lose to an earlier bid of the same amount... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
   / EBay Sniping #17  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The e-bay proxy, if it is higher than any outside sniper bid, should prevail, no matter how infinitesimally small the time is (IMO). )</font>

Of course it will, I don't think anyone has said or implied that it wouldn't.
 
   / EBay Sniping #18  
I make a proxy bid on what I am willing to pay for an item and then go away. If I win it they email me, if not it was over what I was willing to pay. If my max was 100 then 101 was to much.
 
   / EBay Sniping #19  
Would you "snipers" care to practice your theories on my fire extinguisher auction? I could use the money and it might help to prove or disprove the hypothetical theories that abound about sniping..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / EBay Sniping
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Junkman, I think your fire extinguisher proves the "greater fool" theory of investing. "I'm a fool to pay this much, but there's got to be a greater fool than me." I'm afraid that at $1K, I don't have much faith in the theory. On the other hand, I'd have said the same thing at 50 bucks, so what do I know?
 

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