EcoBOOST

/ EcoBOOST #21  
Any vehicle can run 87 octane. But if the performance is significantly reduced by retarding the timing, etc, such that 91 octane is actually required to do the job, or get the mileage, then that additional cost of the 91 should be factored in.

John points out that the eco mileage drops more when towing than it does with the the 5.0. And then it needs premium fuel to work hard. And then the gearing is probably wrong. And the eco costs more to begin with.

I seriously question a turbocharged small gas engine for hard work. It may hold up, but there is more to the story. There may not be a bit of real world savings over the 5.0. It seems more like a marketing ploy.

If the truck is simply a commuter car and occasional grocery getter, fine, the eco is probably a good choice. Plus the owner can proudly say he has a turbo.
 
/ EcoBOOST #22  
The Ford EcoBoost engine has an impressive number of hat tricks inside to get that performance. The use of variable valve timing, turbo charging, direct injection of the fuel (gasoline directly into the cylinder), plus a staged fuel injection phase, all under guidance of a computer allows Ford to minimize the turbo lag, control engine knock, and have a small engine get good fuel economy yet perform like a much larger engine. This link to wikipedia does a much better job of explaining it then I can. Ford EcoBoost engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently the twin turbos are oversized so even at low rpms there is a significant amount of air is being pushed into the engine. By leaving the exhaust valves open longer (possible because of direct injection) some of the excess air is simply blown out the exhaust system. Close the valves, inject a little gas, spark and things work like a small engine lightly loaded. When the driver stomps on it the exhaust valve timing changes to close earlier and now the excess air is trapped and used to pressurize the cylinder. Add the appropriate amount (more) of gasoline (directly injected into the cylinder after all the valves are closed) plus some spark and the small engine performs like a much larger normally aspirated engine.

Durability is a very large question in this high tech mix of tricks. Ford has been building various sizes and versions of this engine for number of years at least as far back as 2007. When we were looking at purchasing a new SUV like the Ford Escape, one of the things that gave me pause was the longevity of the EcoBoost engines (only type of engines available). The fuel pressures used in a direct injection gasoline engine is over 2000 psi. Rather low compared to what current diesels are using but familiar to your father's diesel tractor. Given the low lubricity of gasoline, one has to wonder what kind of metallurgical magic is in play in those injector pumps. The rather high cylinder BMEP values suggest the engine has to be built more like a diesel than a old style gasoline engine. Assuming the durability is there, the engine should be able to deliver good fuel economy (if the driver doesn't have a lead foot) and power when it is needed for towing. Given that most auto and truck manufactures has some version of a direct injected gasoline engine (turbos, variable cams, etc) in the works we will be seeing alot more of these trick filled engines.

gordon
 
/ EcoBOOST #23  
One of the biggest issues with the Eco Boost is the exhaust. I have been doing some looking around and there is 30HP and 50 FT TQ left on the table by Ford in just the exhaust system shown by test from the aftermarket. It seems like this may be planned because I am hearing a power upgrade in the next year or so.

As for gear ratios in the Eco Boost it must be the dealers. In my area all them I see are either 3.55 or 3.73 gears. This is farm country and guys who know trucks, not just what they see on commercials. GM seems to be the bad one. I see lots of trucks with 3.42 or 3.08. Dodge seems to like the old standards.

Chris
 
/ EcoBOOST #24  
Raspy said:
Any vehicle can run 87 octane. But if the performance is significantly reduced by retarding the timing, etc, such that 91 octane is actually required to do the job, or get the mileage, then that additional cost of the 91 should be factored in.

John points out that the eco mileage drops more when towing than it does with the the 5.0. And then it needs premium fuel to work hard. And then the gearing is probably wrong. And the eco costs more to begin with.

I seriously question a turbocharged small gas engine for hard work. It may hold up, but there is more to the story. There may not be a bit of real world savings over the 5.0. It seems more like a marketing ploy.

If the truck is simply a commuter car and occasional grocery getter, fine, the eco is probably a good choice. Plus the owner can proudly say he has a turbo.

For me, I compared the ecoboost to the 6.2 v8. I feel it is a closer comparison for towing capacity. I agree, if the extra power is not needed, the 5.0 is probably a better choice. I sure don't use my truck as a grocery getter and believe the 3.7 liter engine is best suited for that task. Any towing over 7000 lbs, ecoboost or 6.2 are the best options.
 
/ EcoBOOST #25  
I also live in farm country, and folks here also know trucks pretty well. My intent is not to say that the better gear ratios cannot be had with an ecoboost engine, just they are hard to find a somewhat scarce around here. In many cases they have to be traded out with a dealer that has one. My dad, when he went to get his ecoboost looked on the lot with my at his dealership, a large one near Charlotte. Of over 100 f150 trucks in stock, exactly two had either the 3.55 or the 3.73 ratio. The rear had mostly 3.31 open rear. We must be careful in identifying thoese because the ecoboost is a good engine and deserves to be paired with a rear axle ratio that can take advantage of its power.

John M
 
/ EcoBOOST #26  
I also live in farm country...However, many of the new trucks have horsepower and trannies that can easily overcome the 3:42's....My 6.2 tows and hauls multiple times better than my 3:73 equipped 5.3 did...And the 5.3 did a fine job as far as I'm concerned. Most around here are running big V8's and diesels...I really haven't seen any Eco's around here.

Given the mileage ratings I've seen on the Eco Ford...My 404 hp GMC is pretty close...The turbo'd six is a great idea but I think it needs to season for a while before I'll be sold on that idea of paying extra for it.

Not bashing the idea by any means...Just my observation at this point in history.
 
/ EcoBOOST #27  
timswi said:
I also live in farm country...However, many of the new trucks have horsepower and trannies that can easily overcome the 3:42's....My 6.2 tows and hauls multiple times better than my 3:73 equipped 5.3 did...And the 5.3 did a fine job as far as I'm concerned. Most around here are running big V8's and diesels...I really haven't seen any Eco's around here.

Given the mileage ratings I've seen on the Eco Ford...My 404 hp GMC is pretty close...The turbo'd six is a great idea but I think it needs to season for a while before I'll be sold on that idea of paying extra for it.

Not bashing the idea by any means...Just my observation at this point in history.

What mileage are you getting with your 6.2 liter? EPA rates it at 30% less fuel efficient than the ecoboost. Are you running 87 octane or the recommended 91 octane? Just wondering what you consider pretty close.
 
/ EcoBOOST #28  
I cannot speak for Tim but my neighbor has a Denali Yukon with 6.2L and 3.42 gears. His wife drives it "like she stole it" and we live where it is hilly and they live almost at the top of our mountain (5400 feet at their house) meaning to get home it is a drive from the base of our road at 2450' to there within three miles. My neighbor says in combination driving they get right at 16 mpg on regular unleaded confirmed by hand calculation, on trips they get around 19 with three children, their gear and a travel box on top, and pulling their pontoon boat they get around 11 mpg. That's really not that bad for that powerful an engine, and it will really move and I like the way they sound. My neighbor is at just over 80K on the vehicle with no service issues save frequent brake services over the trucks life.

John
 
/ EcoBOOST #29  
I also live in farm country...However, many of the new trucks have horsepower and trannies that can easily overcome the 3:42's....My 6.2 tows and hauls multiple times better than my 3:73 equipped 5.3 did...And the 5.3 did a fine job as far as I'm concerned. Most around here are running big V8's and diesels...I really haven't seen any Eco's around here.

Given the mileage ratings I've seen on the Eco Ford...My 404 hp GMC is pretty close...The turbo'd six is a great idea but I think it needs to season for a while before I'll be sold on that idea of paying extra for it.

Not bashing the idea by any means...Just my observation at this point in history.

Not bashing you but its the Red Neck mentality that does not want a V6. Trust me, I had it also. I was always more is better till I got smoked by a 5.9L 6 cylinder Cummis versus my 7.3L V8 Powerstroke. Same was true with the Buick Grand National and many imports. I currently have a BMW 335I with a inline 3.0L 6 cylinder with twin turbos. All factory. It will do zero to 60 in 4 seconds and 1/4 mile in 12 seconds from the factory and will flat blow the doors of most V8 US built "muscle cars" like Chargers, Mustangs, and Camaro's.

What I am saying here is the mentality that you need a V8 is just that, in your mind. These new motors like the one in my BMW or the Eco Boost are where its at.

The same mentality was true in my area with import trucks. Not the little ones of the 80's and 90's. I am talking the new ones like the Titan and Tundra. Right now I would say the working men in my area like Farmers, Builders, Landscapers, ect drive primarily Toyota Tundras and Ford trucks. Trust me, its weird to see a Toyota pulling 3 hay wagons or a bean head off a Combine but the sales are strong in this area and have bumped out GM and Dodge from the number two spot behind Ford.

Chris
 
/ EcoBOOST #30  
I cannot speak for Tim but my neighbor has a Denali Yukon with 6.2L and 3.42 gears. His wife drives it "like she stole it" and we live where it is hilly and they live almost at the top of our mountain (5400 feet at their house) meaning to get home it is a drive from the base of our road at 2450' to there within three miles. My neighbor says in combination driving they get right at 16 mpg on regular unleaded confirmed by hand calculation, on trips they get around 19 with three children, their gear and a travel box on top, and pulling their pontoon boat they get around 11 mpg. That's really not that bad for that powerful an engine, and it will really move and I like the way they sound. My neighbor is at just over 80K on the vehicle with no service issues save frequent brake services over the trucks life.

John

A big torque engine will gain more going down hill than it will lose going up hill. I would have never believed it but have seen it numerous times in my Diesel Trucks and my wifes EX is a trucker and I was talking to him about this and he said the same is true for them also. He said in his Semi he can see as much as 1mpg better in hilly terrain versus flat ground.

Chris
 
/ EcoBOOST #31  
But if the performance is significantly reduced by retarding the timing, etc, such that 91 octane is actually required to do the job, or get the mileage, then that additional cost of the 91 should be factored in.

As far as my EcoBoost real world mileage - it is exactly the same whether I use 88 octane or 91 octane. The only difference I notice is a very small boost in acceleration if you put your foot into the throttle using 91 octane. I've run 88 octane for an 6 weeks - then changed to 91 for the next 6 weeks and noticed no mileage change. I average 1100 miles per month.

As for rear end gearing - the Ford dealers where I live only order 3:55 or 3:73 gearing - you can't find an EcoBoost with lower gearing. If you order a limited slip rear-end, it's automatically going to be the 3:55 or 3:73 depending upon whether you get the full trailer towing package or not - the main difference being the mirrors and the 3:73 rear end giving a higher GVCW rating for the trailer towing package.

I prefer the 3:55 as I'm only towing about 9K max and if I have anything heavier, there's a 6.7 liter diesel, F350 crew-cab dually with the trailer towing package sitting in my driveway.

My question is if you're getting a new vehicle, is this a spur of the moment purchase? If not, then order the truck like you want it and wait 6-8 weeks for it to be built and delivered. I had the choice of waiting or having the dealer do a search - which he did - and got me exactly the truck I would order from another dealer. You have a lot of options other than buying only what's on the lot.
 
/ EcoBOOST #34  
I don't have a "redneck" aversion to six cylinder engines. But I do have an aversion to new technology that is unproven, where I have to buy it and become responsible for the Beta testing. And I speak with some experience with Ford engines in that regard.

They can make very good stuff, and I've bought some of it, so this is not a brand war comment. But I've also paid the price for buying a 3.8 liter V6 and an old 6.9 diesel. The list of problems from the blue oval is legendary. Spitting out spark plugs, blown head gaskets, head bolts, EGR coolers, thin film ignition, weak 400CI pistons, and court ordered manufacturing, etc., to name a few. Now the new "breakthrough" is a small highly stressed V6. I say "show me". If it is good, great, and I hope it is. All of this is moot to the loyalists who will stand in line to get one. I say great, do it, and I can see from a distance if they are as good as the seller is claiming.

I'm a diesel guy, so it really doesn't matter to me, unless it proves to be a very good new trend that reduces overall fuel consumption and cost for the same amount of work. Then I might consider one for a car.

In this era we need to do more with less. Fuel efficiency is increasingly important. But it's false economy to pay a lot for something because of advertising and find out there can be heavy hidden costs, or a very limited benefit and shorter overall life.

The second thing is it's a mistake to lump all 6 cylinder engines into one set. Inline 6 is a very well balanced, durable and simple design. It lends itself to being easy to work on and leaves room under the hood for accessories. And as you know, it's no slouch. The V6 is inherently hard to balance and has more parts to do the same thing. Minivans can use the V6 because it's so short, but nearly impossible to change the plugs. Pickups and rear drive cars fit the inline well. It's apples and oranges.

I don't make the mistake of confusing the number of cylinders with the power output, although many do. I also have decided to let others do the Beta testing for me. Finally, the experience of towing in the mountains with an inline 6 diesel is incredibly relaxing. 25% fewer power strokes per minute than a V8 means a relaxed sound. The engine is pulling well at 1,800 RPM and will pull grades without downshifting. There's no foot to the floor and winding it out to get the job done. No selecting premium fuel in advance of a pull. And no extreme heat under the hood from twin turboes and lots of exhaust tubing.

Here's a good blurb from Wikipedia about the problems with the V6:

Balance and smoothness

Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle. All straight engines with an odd number of cylinders suffer from primary dynamic imbalance, which causes an end-to-end rocking motion. Each cylinder bank in a V6 has an odd number of pistons, so the V6 also suffers from the same problem unless steps are taken to mitigate it. In the horizontally opposed flat-6 layout, the rocking motions of the two straight cylinder banks offset each other, while in the inline-6 layout, the two ends of engine are mirror images of each other and compensate every rocking motion. Concentrating on the first order rocking motion, the V6 can be assumed to consist of two separate straight-3 where counterweights on the crankshaft and a counter rotating balance shaft compensate the first order rocking motion. At mating, the angle between the banks and the angle between the crankshafts can be varied so that the balancer shafts cancel each other 90° V6 (larger counter weights) and the even firing 60° V6 with 60° flying arms (smaller counter weights. The second order rocking motion can be balanced by a single co-rotating balancer shaft.).
A 90° V6 can use almost the same technique that balances an even firing 90° crossplane V8 in primary and secondary order. A flatplane V8 is in primary balance because each 4-cylinder bank is in primary balance. In a crossplane V8, balance is achieved at each cylinder pair, since the primary imbalance of a 90° pair is a special case that can be cancelled with a crankshaft counterweight. Secondary balance is achieved by the staggered arrangement of the crossplane crank. A simple 90° V6 with crankshaft counterweights achieves good balance for similar reasons, although the uneven firing intervals will be perceived as roughness at low RPM, making this an unpopular solution. Therefore, designing a smooth V6 engine is a much more complicated problem than the straight-6, flat-6, and V8 layouts. Although the use of offset crankpins, counterweights, and flying arms has reduced the problem to a minor second-order vibration in modern designs, all V6s can benefit from the addition of auxiliary balance shafts to make them completely smooth.[6]
When Lancia pioneered the V6 in 1950, they used a 60° angle between the cylinder banks and a six-throw crankshaft to achieve equally spaced firing intervals of 120°. This still has some balance and secondary vibration problems. When Buick designed a 90° V6 based on their 90° V8, they initially used a simpler three-throw crankshaft laid out in the same manner as the V8 with pairs of connecting rods sharing the same crankpin, which resulted in firing intervals alternating between 90° and 150°. This produced a rough-running design which was unacceptable to many customers. Arguably, the roughness is in the exhaust note, rather than noticeable vibration, so the perceived smoothness is rather good at higher RPM. Later, Buick and other manufacturers refined the design by using a split-pin crankshaft which achieved a regular 120° firing interval by staggering adjacent crankpins by 15° in opposite directions to eliminate the uneven firing and make the engine reasonably smooth.[7] Some manufacturers such as Buick in later versions of their V6 and Mercedes Benz have taken the 90° design a step further by adding a balancing shaft to offset the primary vibrations and produce an almost fully balanced engine.
Some designers have reverted to a 60° angle between cylinder banks, which produces a more compact engine, but have used three-throw crankshafts with flying arms between the crankpins of each throw to achieve even 120° angles between firing intervals. This has the additional advantage that the flying arms can be weighted for balancing purposes.[7] This still leaves an unbalanced primary couple, which is offset by counterweights on the crankshaft and flywheel to leave a small secondary couple, which can be absorbed by carefully designed engine mounts.[8]
Six-cylinder designs are also more suitable for larger displacement engines than four-cylinder ones because power strokes of pistons overlap. In a four-cylinder engine, only one piston is on a power stroke at any given time. Each piston comes to a complete stop and reverses direction before the next one starts its power stroke, which results in a gap between power strokes and noticeable vibrations. In a six-cylinder engine (other than odd-firing V6s), the next piston starts its power stroke 60° before the previous one finishes, which results in smoother delivery of power to the flywheel. In addition, because inertial forces are proportional to piston displacement, high-speed six-cylinder engines will suffer less stress and vibration per piston than an equal displacement engine with fewer cylinders.
Comparing engines on the dynamometer, a typical even-fire V6 shows instantaneous torque peaks of 150% above mean torque and valleys of 125% below mean torque, with a small amount of negative torque (engine torque reversals) between power strokes. On the other hand, a typical four-cylinder engine shows peaks of nearly 300% above mean torque and valleys of 200% below mean torque, with 100% negative torque being delivered between strokes. In contrast, a V8 engine shows peaks of less than 100% above and valleys of less than 100% below mean torque, and torque never goes negative. The even-fire V6 thus ranks between the four and the V8, but closer to the V8, in smoothness of power delivery. An odd-fire V6, on the other hand, shows highly irregular torque variations of 200% above and 175% below mean torque, which is significantly worse than an even-fire V6, and in addition the power delivery shows large harmonic vibrations that have been known to destroy the dynamometer.[9]
[edit]
 
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/ EcoBOOST #35  
I totally agree. I like Ford trucks but they've a lot of engine problems in the past. It's been all the way across the line.

The Ecoboost seems like a great engine. Let's see if that remains true over the next 5-10yrs. I will say this, I have held the pistons and they sure as heck don't look like they are up to 200k of boost to me.
 
/ EcoBOOST #36  
Yup. Ford's 300 inline 6 was a very well balanced, durable and simple design. Chevy had one also, but I don't recall the displacement.
 
/ EcoBOOST #37  
292, 250, 230 and 194 were the common ones. 292 is most commonly referenced in trucks.
 
/ EcoBOOST #38  
Have you guys seen much or any increase mpg since ford went to the 6 speed transmission from the 4 speed? My wife's 07 expedition el has the 6 speed, where my pretty new to me 07 lincoln lt(f150) has the 4 speed. I think their weight is nearly the same within 500#. Lt has better mpg though.
 
/ EcoBOOST #39  
What mileage are you getting with your 6.2 liter? EPA rates it at 30% less fuel efficient than the ecoboost. Are you running 87 octane or the recommended 91 octane? Just wondering what you consider pretty close.

I run it on 87 almost all of the time...Get an average 16mpg in mixed driving....I'm not really easy on it...Can get near 20 on pure interstate driving. Could probably do better if I drove it like an adult..The gas pedal is just too much fun.:D
 
/ EcoBOOST #40  
Wow...this thread's certainly full of speculatium...blah...blah..blah...inherently unbalanced...blah...but not personal experience..blah...blah...the EcoBoost is balanced fine...the power and torque delivery are smooth...it's a nicely engineered motor.

Ford has done millions of miles of testing of the EcoBoost motor. If you'd take the time to go HERE you can see a 150,000 mile test of an engine taken from the assembly line - not one specially prepared - and then stripped down at the North American Auto Show to measure the wear on all parts.
 

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