Electrical hazard???

[Rodmo1]

Hello everyone...I got a call from my friend this morning to come over and try to diagnose an electrical issue he was having with an outdoor sump pump. The issue was a burned up plug which I replaced no problem. I am not aware of why the plug would burn up but at the time it was plugged into an extension cord. His sump pump is installed in the concrete under a grate at the bottom of his exposed basement access stairs (It is a finished basement and this keeps the rain water from getting inside). My concern lies with the placement of the outlet which is also in the "pit". The outlet most definately gets soaked with water at times. This circuit has no GFCI at the outlet or at the panel. Am I missing something here? Is there some way that this electrician did this install properly. Has anyone seen this type of setup before? I am just thinking in the event that the float switch fails the water will easily fill the pit submerging the live outlet and creating a puddle people will step in.

 

[beenthere]

Do you think an electrician did the wiring?
Being in the pit, corrosion would be a big concern. If the water gets to the outlet, then the circuit breaker should trip off. Maybe that is the built-in alarm that the pit is overflowing .
A GFCI in the line would be good, IMO.

I don't understand the mention of an extension cord. If an electrician wired it, then the sump pump power cord should be plugged into an outlet box, outside of the pit. I'd think anyway.

Sounds like an electrical job by someone not knowledgable in electric codes.

 

[bota7800]

I cannot believe that is to code. Even if it is, if it were me, I would move that box above grade in a waterproof outdoor box.

As it happens, I was working on a drainage issue today when the sawsall plug fell into the water. I had to hike back to the garage to reset the GCFI. It did its job.

My actual sump pump is hardwired to a box on the house that has a light and a siren that go off if the pump fails. They seem common now because I saw them on several of the houses we looked at.

 

[JB4310]

Definitely wouldn't want the outlet in the pit, I install alot of sump pumps, but have never put one outside.
Those walk outs and hatchways are the most common job we do, most of the time a gravity drain can be tied into existing footing drain system.

As far as the GFI, at one time it was not required/recommended as you wouldn't want a nuisance trip to put your pump off line, but now I think it is required to have a GFI for sump pump, but not sure, even these guys can't seem to agree.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=86562

The one time I was shocked by household voltage was by touching a defective sump pump, that also must not of had a good ground. Not a bad shock, more of just a real strong tingle.

JB

 

[theboman]

I'd want to know what the pump pulls amp wise when pumping a lot.

RVers use adapters all the time and many times they'll try to run an air conditioner with the 30 amp cord adapted down to a 15 amp. Then they may even be an extension cord involved. I've not seen a fire but seen many a melted adapter, hot cord....etc.

 

[dave1949]

If the water gets to the outlet, then the circuit breaker should trip off. Maybe that is the built-in alarm that the pit is overflowing .
A GFCI in the line would be good, IMO.

.

This is small nitpick, but for safety. I believe in pre-GFI wiring, a submerged appliance or outlet may not trip the breaker. So, don't wade through a flooded basement with underwater washer, dryer, etc. until the power is off.
Dave.

 

[Cat_Driver]

Find out what size circuit breaker is on that plug.

I was plugging in some lights into what I thought was a 20 amp circuit - well it looked like a 20 amp circuit because it had a typical hose outlet.

The lights were 1000 watt lights so normally you could get 2 lights on a 20 amp circuit, well a guy cam along an plugged in two more lights and I saw what he did and I was scratching my head. Then I smelled something burning. I felt the extension cord and it was hot. I went back to unplug the cord at the outlet and when I did the rubber around the plus was so soft from heat that when I pulled it out the plug came away from the prongs in a gooey mess.

I **** the breaker off and that痴 when I say some knucklehead has wired a 20 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker.

Check the breaker it痴 allowing too much power to get to the plug and not blowing at the 15 Or 20 amp mark.

 

[Pops15]

Hello everyone...I got a call from my friend this morning to come over and try to diagnose an electrical issue he was having with an outdoor sump pump. The issue was a burned up plug which I replaced no problem. I am not aware of why the plug would burn up but at the time it was plugged into an extension cord. His sump pump is installed in the concrete under a grate at the bottom of his exposed basement access stairs (It is a finished basement and this keeps the rain water from getting inside). My concern lies with the placement of the outlet which is also in the "pit". The outlet most definately gets soaked with water at times. This circuit has no GFCI at the outlet or at the panel. Am I missing something here? Is there some way that this electrician did this install properly. Has anyone seen this type of setup before? I am just thinking in the event that the float switch fails the water will easily fill the pit submerging the live outlet and creating a puddle people will step in.

Sounds like multiple problems.
When you say "pit" you are talking about the pit below the floor that the pump is in? Or are you talking about the stair well? Two very different things. No way a receptacle should ever be installed in the sump pit. Since you said an extension cord was used I'm going to guess the receptacle is in the stair well. Extension cords are not supposed to be used for permanent wiring. In other words something like a sump pump thats plugged in all the time shouldn't use an extension cord.
There are several things that could cause the plug to get hot. Corrosion on the plug, receptacle or wiring. A broken wire in the pump cord or extension cord. A breaker that's too big for the gauge wire in conjunction with a pump that draws more amps than the wire is rated for.

 

[Rodmo1]

Thanks guys for all the responses...To clear some things up. When I say "pit" I am referring to the actual sump pit that sits below the bottom step before you enter the basement. It is about 11" deep covered with a metal grate. The outlet is inside this "pit". When I went over yesterday he explained the situation to me like this:
1. The pump started to become intermittent (I believe this was due to the switch being jammed with debris)
2. The pump fails on the "pit" outlet (caused by tripped breaker) (friend is unaware of circuit breaker operation)
3. Friend wires up pump to extension cord without switch
4. Pump runs constantly and eventually cord plug burns up
Obviously this guy is not very good with electric and the funny thing is he works as a civil engineer designing sewer treatment plants??
All I did yesterday was wire a new plug onto the pump and plugged it back into the "pit" outlet. I am going to strongly encourage him to not use this outlet and hire someone to install a gfci outlet on the wall of the entrance. I do not personally want to be involved with this project as I see it as a liability (I am not a licensed electrician)

Rod M.

 

[Rodmo1]

To answer a few more questions...

The breaker the pump runs off of is unknown, none of their breakers are labeled and he cannot remember which one was tripped when he found it. They have 2 200 amp panels so I was not about to try everyone. All I saw is no GFCI breakers on the panel

The pump is 1/2 horsepower...1 hp = 746 watts 746/2 = 373 watts
373 watts plus heat loss should be less then 5 amps

From what I know of the NEC all sump pumps need to be on a simplex outlet and as in the link mentioned earlier the need for a GFCI is up to debate.

From my experience/knowledge when an outlet gets submerged several things can happen
1. leakage currents can pass between hot/neutral flowing through water and will result in wasted electricity but may not be enough current to trip breaker
2. Water in contact with hot becomes energized and waits patiently for a path to ground

After reading responses I am fairly certain that this is a dangerous design and not a common practice.

Rod M.

 

[Mike058]

Hey Rod,
I'm not an electrician either and I only found one reference in the NEC 2005 that mentions GFCI in sumps. That's 620.85 and it's talking about elevators, escalators and moving walkways. It says "A single receptacle supplying a permanently installed sump pump shall not require ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection." Maybe someone was thinking of that when they wired the thing up. But 210.8 is where we're told where GFCI's are required. And that's most everywhere outside and in unfinished parts of basements. The only exceptions listed are where an outlet is not readily accessible. Like a roof mounted one for roof heating tape, ceiling mounted inside for a garage door opener or behind an appliance that has dedicated space (like a freezer or refrigerator). Or, I suppose, one in a sump for a sump pump.

I'm with you. Have that outlet in the sump moved high enough where it can't get soaked. Then it needs a cover for a damp or wet location (depending on how much weather exposure there is). Being a sump pump, if it goes off because of a nuisance trip, a lot of damage could occur. Instead of a GFCI outlet, maybe a switch, with a proper cover for damp location could be located within sight of the sump, labeled prominently what it's for, so the power could be shut off if the pump does fail and water starts to rise out of the sump? I'd get a single outlet instead of the cheaper and much more readily available duplex kind so someone wouldn't be tempted to use the outlet for something else, since it isn't GFCI protected.

 

[radioman]

I am a little confused. Your freind has a METAL grate in front of the steps to the pit ? or behind and under the steps. ? The plug outlet gets wet often ?! there must be alot of corrsion in the plug already. This is a fire hazard for sure. what happens if the pit overflows and power is still on ? SHUDDER! you are right to be concerned. I would get the GFCI test plug and put it in the questionable outlet. If it doesnt trip- means there isnt another plug in house somewhere tied into that sump outlet or breaker with GFCI built in.

I agree with others accessment, move outlout out of water harms way and use gfci outlet.

 

[Rodmo1]

Basically picture poured concrete stairs in an "L" shape going down to the basement. At the bottom there is a 3'x3' landing. When the stairs were poured the contractor formed up a pit that is part of the bottom landing and covered by a steel grate right in front of the door. These stairs were an add on and not part of the original house plans. Maybe later this week I can put up a photo if I make it out there. The other issue as far as rerouting the wiring is the existing circuit runs through conduit in the concrete where it comes into the sump pit. I would have to add a whole new circuit or find where the old one originates and splice in.

Rod M.

 

[JB4310]

Does the house have a sump pump, If the house basement has a sump pump then most likely could completely eliminate the one in the stairwell, even if there's no pump, as long as there's some type of interior footing drain system a simple tie in would handle the water from the stairwell.

JB.

 

[Rodmo1]

I believe the house has an inside pump, however, it is at the other end of the house. Directly inside this door is a carpeted floor with paneled walls.

 

[Pops15]

That's the scariest/stupidest/most dangerous sump pump receptacle set up I've ever heard of.
I wonder how many others the contractor did that way? How did it ever pass inspection?

 

[JB4310]

I believe the house has an inside pump, however, it is at the other end of the house. Directly inside this door is a carpeted floor with paneled walls.

Well we never advise bringing more water into the inside system, so unless there's a roof over the stairwell, I would leave the 2nd pump there. But typically around here there's a footing drain just inside the door (under the floor) that we tie into, any water would be carried to the inside pump no mater where located, so if it was a covered stairwell it wouldn't be much more water added to the existing system.

If it's an uncovered stairwell, then better to try and control as much as possible with a pump there, but would want a threshold drain in case of pump failure. When ever a house has to have 2 pumps we try and tie them in to each other via sub slab piping so they can back-up each other, in other words if one pump failed the water wouldn't overflow from the pit and flow across the floor looking for the other pit.
In our basement drainage line of work, the Threshold Drain is the bread and butter for sure.

JB

 

[Rodmo1]

I am guessing the contractor they had may have been a "buddy". I will give him credit though...The stairs and entrance to the basement are really nice and structurally seem very well done. Pretty sure electric isnt his strong point though. I am calling my friend this afternoon to see how the pump handled yesterdays rain and also advise him on the safety issues. I think I will encourage him to run it off of an extension cord for the time being. It seems like a catch 22 for me...leave it be since I didnt design it and risk my buddies safety or change it to GFCI and risk property damage when the safety trips causing flooding of the house.

 

[radioman]

tell your buddy to go to the store and pick up the gfci built in extension cord. Its better then what he got now until he can fix it permanantly.

 

[chipsndust]

tell your buddy to go to the store and pick up the gfci built in extension cord. Its better then what he got now until he can fix it permanantly.

Also, make sure the wire gauge of the extension cord is at least 14AWG, preferably 12AWG. Nearly all the "cheap" extension cords are 18AWG. I would guess that is why the pump plug burned; it was plugged into a long, 18AWG extension cord, which is under rated for the amperage.