Electrical question

[greenthumb]

I am not sure how to explain this so I will use my non engineering non electrical rambling. We had our house resided and on one end over the garage we had a motion light that we put a new fixture up to look better with the siding. the way the old light worked was that is came on if someone/thing went in front of the garage which is the main drive of our house. I could also turn it on from the inside of the house with a switch. by the garage door if it was not on. When the siders took the old light off they showed me some relay looking thing that was in the electrical box and of course I had no idea what it was (the guy who built the house did some different things that I believe I have most of all corrected) I chucked it up to that. Well after they put the new light up the switch inside the house does not do anything with the light. The light still comes on with motion but that is it. Was that box some sort of relay? Should I even pursue replacing it or leave it we never had any trouble with the old light or electric but I would not know where to even start looking for a relay like that. I assume the relay fed the switch witch tripped the light on when the inside switch was turned on. I hope someone can at least give a little direction from this ramble

 

[Lasgambler]

While it is dark out try you switch, if it is on, turn off for about a second then back on. I think you should be able to control the light from the switch without some extra relay in there. Do you still have the destructions that came with it? Terry

 

[JB4310]

Almost sounds like what the ceiling fans have, a remote that controls the fan speeds and the dimmer, it's 110 volt but sends a RC signal so many wires between the fixture and the switch are not required.

Never seen anything like that for a motion light though unless it was an old style, the new ones can be turned on overriding the motion sensor by turning the switch to off and back on within 2-3 seconds.

Should have an electrician look at it, especially if you want to be able to use the switch, but also to make sure the siders didn't do anything wrong.

JB.

 

[Cap-n-Cray]

It sounds like a remote switch. The relay was a RF receiver that was wired in to the light circuit. There probably was not a wire running from the garage switch to the light box. Open up the switch box (make sure the power is off) and you will probably find a strange looking switch. Larger than a normal switch with a wire going to nothing, the antenna, it sends RF to the relay. It may even have a battery.

Did you keep the relay like box? If so it probably can be rewired back in to the light circuit on the roof. I have installed such devices quite a few times when there is no way to wire in a switch. The light box is always hot or on.

Cary

 

[Scooby074]

Sounds like they used one of those add on wireless switches. The light is probably getting direct power (from a receptacle or something).

It would be alot better to hard wire it back to the switch ( i hate those wireless gizmos).

Similar to this http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?sitex=10025:22372:US&item=396942

 

[greenthumb]

thanks for the replys so far. a few things I left out. one I did not keep the swtich. two the relay switch they showed me was wired there is a wire coming from the direction of the house swtich thanks

 

[JB4310]

thanks for the replys so far. a few things I left out. one I did not keep the swtich. two the relay switch they showed me was wired there is a wire coming from the direction of the house swtich thanks

If it is a RF remote it would have wires to it so batteries would not be needed at that end, and also wired to the light. The RF signal would go from switch to light "over the air"
The switch end could also be ac powered or battery remote, but probably ac since you would of needed to change batteries at some point.

As was mentioned the reason for a remote switch would be that the wire to the light could not be switched because the hot wire was taken from an existing circuit and would of been more work to run another wire to that switch.

If that's the case there would be a sending remote in that switch box, also good chance that the light and the switch are on different circuits so two breakers would need to be turned off, be careful.

An electrician would figure that out quick.

JB.

 

[MicroPilot]

Have you taken the light switch off the wall to see if it wired in? If not then it's most likely the "remote" scenario others have described.

Another possibility is it could an X-10 style remote switch. This would be connected the house wiring.

 

[deerefan]

yes you need the relay...heres why...the motion detector on your light acts similar to a photocell. the main power wire goes to the light fixtures detector, when that detector is tripped it pulls in the relay completing the circuit letting the light come on. the relay needs voltage to work...therefore a second feed from the light switch goes to the relay, so when you turn the switch on it send power thru the relay to the light...does this make sense? it would be a little easier to show you than explain it in writing. i do recommend an electrician though if you are not comfortable. let me know if i helped at all.

 

[greenthumb]

I took the light switch off the wall in the house and everything is wired in the box in the house

 

[capi75rs]

Ok, let me see if I have this correct. The light, BEFORE the siding was redone, would come on when either you flip the switch OR if motion was detected in the area of the light. The switch that controls the light is hardwired, ie. looks like a switch that would turn on a light in a closet, and has no remote. AFTER the siding was replaced the "relay" was not reinstalled and ONLY motion will activate the light now. It sounds like you have covered that it is not an RF style switch. So without me being there and going off what is stated, it sounds like you do have an AC relay that was installed to offer you the either/or way of turning on the light. The relay can be wired to operate off the light switch to bypass the motion detector and activate the light. This would allow someone inside the house to go outside and have light to see before they got to the motion detection area. Not knowing how they have wired the relay, I'll tell you it (the relay) can be wired by switching neutral (aka switching ground) or by switching the hot side (120v usually the black wire, if wired by code) The relay you would need is not very expensive @ $10, but could be tricky to connect if you've never wired up one. here is a link to Granger.
Grainger Industrial Supply
As you can see they have thousands of these relays in all different shapes and sizes. You'll need an AC relay for 120v with a 5-10 amp rating which is overkill on amperage IF your only running the motion light. Size is also important so it will fit in the junction box.

The wires comming from the light switch?, is there only one single wire or is it a couple of wires in a sheith ie. like the wires running to an outlet or light. I know of several ways one could wire up the relay and finding out exactley how many wires there are is important.

I have not thought of wiring my motion lights this way, but it is a neat way to have the best of both worlds. Motion and switch control. By chance the fellow you purchased the home from wasn't an electrican was he

Once you decide on a relay you'll need to find out a few things. Mainly what way the relay is activated. If you decide to continue let us know and I'd be happy to give you some points to check. However it may be quicker to have a local electrican come down and install the relay. It would only take about an hour or so, but I have said that before and been 4 hours into a job

 

[JB4310]

I have not thought of wiring my motion lights this way, but it is a neat way to have the best of both worlds. Motion and switch control. By chance the fellow you purchased the home from wasn't an electrican was he

That must have been old school, having the separate relay thing.

All my newer motion lights have that option, to control/over ride from switch. they also have options for dusk to dawn or a preset number of hours to keep light on "half bright".

I have the double flood light fixtures and set them for 4 hours half brite and only 1 minute on with motion.
I've got 2 of them on my shop which is 200 ft from the house, it provides some piece of mind knowing if some one is snooping around out there they might get scared off with the bright lights.

JB.

 

[greenthumb]

capi75rs

you have explained what I am trying to better than I did or ever could have.

There are two wires connected to the motion light the black one coming from the cable into the box (black) and one is a jumper going to the white grounds that all meet in the box and capped together. The white that comes with the black cable is capped off by itself. the previous owner was not an electrician he called himself an "inventor"

 

[capi75rs]

Ok, it sounds like the relay was switched hot. But we need to make sure.

1. Does the white wire that is capped off have a wrap of black electrical tape within 6-8 inches of the cap?

2.Do you want to install the relay yourself?

3. If you do want to install a relay, do you have an AC voltmeter?

JB4310, according to greenthumb the previous owner was an inventor, maybe the new lights you have are pattened to him

 

[Pirate]

the previous owner was not an electrician he called himself an "inventor"

Superb. That's what I want the people that buy my home to say about me. It will take them years to figure out why I did things but they will like it.

 

[JB4310]

JB4310, according to greenthumb the previous owner was an inventor, maybe the new lights you have are pattened to him

Maybe

I'm having trouble understanding greenthumbs description of the wiring? there would have to be 2 cables going to the light box for the switch to not be able to control it, right? the siders only hot wired it with the hot wire coming in on one cable and just bypassed the cable to the switch? It's over my head, I'm confused, still curious though

JB.

 

[capi75rs]

]Maybe

I'm having trouble understanding greenthumbs description of the wiring? there would have to be 2 cables going to the light box for the switch to not be able to control it, right? the siders only hot wired it with the hot wire coming in on one cable and just bypassed the cable to the switch? It's over my head, I'm confused, still curious though

JB[/I].

It all depends on where the power is comming from and weither you switch ground or hot. Yes there could be 2 "cables" in the box. Being the switch is not controlling the light as of now, I'm assuming the power is run into the light junction box, but it is possible that it is not. I've seen stranger things when it comes to wiring.

How I'm thinking it is wired is like this:

We have two "cables" comming into the LIGHT junction box. One of them will be POWER comming from a power source, ie an outlet or even the breaker box. We will call this wire the POWER wire. The other "cable" will be ran to the switch and we will call this the FEED wire. In the LIGHT junction box some of the BLACK wires get connected together ( POWER, Motion sensor input & FEED). The motion sensor may be a blue wire. DO NOT connect the actual light fixture black wire or the motions sensor output to this bundle of wires, only the INPUT of the motion sensor.

The motion sensor OUTPUT and the actual light fixture black wire can be wired together by themselves.

The WHITE wire going to the SWITCH which we are calling the FEED wire should be taped with a piece of black electrical tape @ 6" from the end. This is a universal sign to electricans that a white wire is being used for "HOT" applications. From this point (for ease of explanation) we will now go to the switch. At the switch the BLACK wire of the FEED cable goes to the bottom of the light switch. The white wire (taped with black electrical tape) goes to the top of the switch. Now we go back to the LIGHT junction box.

Be careful here. All the WHITE wires EXCEPT the one with the piece of black electrical tape gets connected together. This is the FEED white wire, the white with black electrical tape, which is actually now a HOT wire comming from the switch. It will serve as power to the relay. Some relays may have a few "taps" while others may have several, this is where we must have the schematic of the relay. The main thing is that the FEED white wire, tapped in black electral tape, goes to one side of the coil "taps" on the relay. The other side of the coil "tap" will go to the neutral (white) wires in the junction box.

Now the relay. THIS could very so finding the pinout of the relay is VERY IMPORTANT. As stated above the coil will get power from the switch and neutral from the white wires. It is CRITICAL that a NO (normal open) set of contacts is selected. On the INPUT side of the relay contact we will need a wire going to the black (hot) side of of the POWER wire. This wire should be HOT all the time regardless if the motion detector is active or the switch is flipped, this side of the NO contact MUST have power ALL the time. Now the other side of the NO (normal open) contact will have one wire pulled from it and will go the the BLACK wire of the actual light fixture. You will also need to wire the output side of the motion detector to this side as well.

Make certain that ALL the "taps" are covered with electrical tape. Depending on the relay and how many "taps" you have for the contacts the unused taps that are NC (normal closed) will be HOT!! If several NO (normal open) "taps are provided they will all become HOT when the switch is flipped. MAKE CERTAIN ALL "TAPS" ARE ELECTRICALLY SHIELDED.

Oh yea don't wire up anything with the power on either, turn off the breaker before you begin.

 

[greenthumb]

Ok, it sounds like the relay was switched hot. But we need to make sure.

1. Does the white wire that is capped off have a wrap of black electrical tape within 6-8 inches of the cap? no black tape just a wire cap connector

2.Do you want to install the relay yourself? I could I have wired standard electric items basement etc. this is just uncharted water.

3. If you do want to install a relay, do you have an AC voltmeter? I believe I can borrow one from a relative

also let me re explain my description. As I re-read I am a little confused at my self. the wires I describe are coming from one romax wire from that romax he used only the black wire and that goes to the swtich you see on the right. the white wire in the romax is capped with a connector. switch has a jumper going to the white romax grounds and the other light swtich grounds all connected with a connector cap. I have attached a picture maybe that will make my explination even more confusing.

JB4310, according to greenthumb the previous owner was an inventor, maybe the new lights you have are pattened to him

I am not sure how great an inventor he was. I have fixed a lot more things around here than I would have liked to.

 

[capi75rs]

I'm going to break up your statement and ask a few questions. I'm thinking of two different ways he could have wired this, one hot and one switching ground (neutral).

1.) the white wire in the romax is capped with a connector. Question: is it also capped at the light fixture junction box?

2.) switch has a jumper going to the white romax grounds and the other light swtich grounds all connected with a connector cap.
This statement is making me think he may be switching ground. But I'm not sure why he chose to use the black wire, of the romex between the light and switch, if he is switching ground.

We need to find out if the white wire that the switch is connected to is hot or neutral. It should be neutral but I've seen folks wire the black as neutral and white as hot, which is not the way it should be. With a volt meter check for voltage on the two wires on the switch that control the outside light. Check by placing one probe on the bare ground wires in the back of the box and the other probe on one wire of the switch. Check both wires this way. Hopefully we have no power. Another great test if you have a multimeter is to ohm out the two wires on the switch to ground.

If he is only using one of the two wires in the romex between the light and the switch, then I'm thinking he is switching ground. He is probley getting power for the relay from the light junction box. Are you confused yet

One thing to remember about residential electricity is neutral is neutral is neutral. All neutral wires return to the same location in the junction box. HOWEVER hot is NOT hot. Each Hot main comming into the breaker box is a different phase. If you put the two together you'll have your 220V which could be bad for 110v items.

Let me know if you have voltage on the switch in reference to ground and we'll go from there.

 

[capi75rs]

I don't know how old your house is, but many many years ago it was a common practice to switch ground to lights. This has since gone away and is not very common today. I have ran across a few older houses that I rewired that were set up this way. Every switch was set to break neutral instead of hot.