Buying Advice Elevation and the need for a turbo?
- Thread starter KNPV PSD
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Thanks!
Not worried about cost or complexity, more wondering on do I really want to step up in engine size for the benefits of a turbo? Hadn't even thought about the 3vs4 cyl notion... More to look into!
My main use for the rig will be driveway maintenance (land plane and snow removal) and working on maintaining and clearing 25 acres of fir, pine, and spruce. My place is on a hill with some steep sections so that is the main reason I am looking at a higher HP rig. I've borrowed a neighbors 30hp Kubota and it struggled to make it up some sections of my drive while pulling the land plane. I also want to stay on the smaller side to keep it maneuverable in the timber but not so small it is ineffective...
Agreed, but here in the early stages I am finding the turbo does take a step up from what I'd be getting if I was at sea level.
Thanks for all the great information so far, keep it coming!
jeff9366
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Research steering gears. Kubota uses higher cost beveled steering gears in most, perhaps all, Kubota compact tractors. Tractors with bevel gears in the steering turn much sharper than those without. You do not want to buy a small tractor only to find it requires a greater turn radius than a larger tractor you had considered. Turning radius is usually included in tractor specification data. If turning radius is omitted it is a clue.......
More to look into!
Have you started to spreadsheet tractor specifications for the machinery under consideration?
Think more about bare tractor weight than tractor "size" Bare tractor weight allows you to compare apples to apples in tractor specifications. For most tractor applications, bare tractor weight is more important than tractor horsepower.
Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than level land operation. Heavier tractors start with a wider wheel stance. Heavier tractors usually have adjustable rear wheel spreads; wide rear wheel spreads improve tractor stability more than any other variable.
Four wheel drive is essential on hillsides. Four wheel drive supplies increased traction and braking. When descending slopes 4-WD augments rear brakes as tractor weight shifts forward, decreasing rear tire grip. Tractors do not have front brakes.
Compact tractors optimized for hill work have liquid installed in the rear tires rather than air. "Loaded" tires are filled 50% to 75% with liquid, which lowers the tractor's center-of-gravity, increasing rollover resistance. "Loading" two compact tractor rear tires increases tractor weight 300 pounds to 800 pounds over weight of identical two tires inflated with air. Some prefer to ballast rear wheels with iron wheel weights rather than tire liquids.
When considering a tractor purchase, bare tractor weight first, tractor horsepower second and (narrowly) rear wheel ballast third.
Last edited:
finn1
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Back in the days of early Dieselization of Farm and construction equipment, most of the manufacturers were headquartered in Chicago (AC, IH), Peoria (Cat), and Waterloo (Deere), all of which are roughly 600-1000’ altitude, so standard atmospheric conditions for power ratings water set at that altitude. The 3% derating guideline is an approximation based on air density reduction with increasing altitude.
By 5-6000 feet altitude, visible smoke becomes a problem with a naturally aspirated engine, so service procedures were published to allow the dealer to turn down the fuel rate to control the visible smoke, and salvage some lost fuel efficiency, as a smoking engine isn’t making appreciably more power than a clean one not on the oxygen limited smoke hook.
Electronics allow the engine controller to automatically reduce fuel rate at altitude to control smoke, and the same 3% guidelines apply.
Bottom line is that at 4000 feet altitude, your engine will be down approximately 9% in power from the standard conditions.
A turbo is a good way to compensate if that 3% is important to you. That 9% would only apply to the tractor engine at max rating, though. For example, a Kioti CK 3510 is already derated compared to a CK4010, and the electronics should (If the calibrator know what they are doing) not have to be derated as much as the higher hp CK4010, which runs at a higher bmep , closer to the smoke hook.
By 5-6000 feet altitude, visible smoke becomes a problem with a naturally aspirated engine, so service procedures were published to allow the dealer to turn down the fuel rate to control the visible smoke, and salvage some lost fuel efficiency, as a smoking engine isn’t making appreciably more power than a clean one not on the oxygen limited smoke hook.
Electronics allow the engine controller to automatically reduce fuel rate at altitude to control smoke, and the same 3% guidelines apply.
Bottom line is that at 4000 feet altitude, your engine will be down approximately 9% in power from the standard conditions.
A turbo is a good way to compensate if that 3% is important to you. That 9% would only apply to the tractor engine at max rating, though. For example, a Kioti CK 3510 is already derated compared to a CK4010, and the electronics should (If the calibrator know what they are doing) not have to be derated as much as the higher hp CK4010, which runs at a higher bmep , closer to the smoke hook.
jeff9366
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Interesting story.
Was the Kubota 2-WD or 4-WD? Were rear tires "loaded" with liquid or inflated with air?
Did the Kubota have a Loader mounted? Was there dirt in the Loader bucket to hold the front end down, increasing traction with the front wheels for sure and possibly the rear wheels as well?
A LPGS is a long, ground engagement implement. On a steep hill it would certainly unload weight from the front wheels. I suppose with implement drag, LPGS could shift where the rear tire patches contacted the ground, altering rear wheel traction as well.
You may not have operated the HST transmission properly. Did you engage HST/LOW range or try to ascend in HST/MED or HST/HIGH? HST requires some counter-intuitive technique ascending hills.
Hmmm........
Interesting story. Horsepower may or may not have been the problem.
This was my first time on a tractor!
Unsure if it’s 4wd. I left it the way he gave it to me except for throttle and range selection. Don’t know if tires are loaded.
It has a 4in1 bucket that was empty.
The plane (60” model) was loaded as I went up the steepest portions. I do think I was using it wrong in that I was trying to “skim” my driveway with the 3ph lowered only to 3. I think now I’m supposed to just drop it all the way and let the weight if the implement do the work?
I definitely learned real fast to let off the foot treadle as the engine bogged down. I was in LOW the whole time. Except when I ran down the road in HI to take it back to his place.
His Kubota is a 2004 I think.
jeff9366
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KNPV PSD
It has a 4in1 bucket that was empty.
Heavy bucket.
The plane (60” model) was loaded as I went up the steepest portions. I do think I was using it wrong in that I was trying to “skim” my driveway with the 3ph lowered only to 3. I think now I’m supposed to just drop it all the way and let the weight if the implement do the work?
Yes. Additional implement ground contact would ****** tractor progress up hill further.
I definitely learned real fast to let off the foot treadle as the engine bogged down. I was in LOW the whole time. Except when I ran down the road in HI to take it back to his place.
This is correct HST technique.
It has a 4in1 bucket that was empty.
Heavy bucket.
The plane (60” model) was loaded as I went up the steepest portions. I do think I was using it wrong in that I was trying to “skim” my driveway with the 3ph lowered only to 3. I think now I’m supposed to just drop it all the way and let the weight if the implement do the work?
Yes. Additional implement ground contact would ****** tractor progress up hill further.
I definitely learned real fast to let off the foot treadle as the engine bogged down. I was in LOW the whole time. Except when I ran down the road in HI to take it back to his place.
This is correct HST technique.
Last edited:
Egon
Epic Contributor
Go for the turbo if possible. It will be a more efficient engine.
Turbo’s got patented around 1905 so they have been around for several years. Since that time oil quality, cooling and metals have made them pretty reliable.
Turbo’s got patented around 1905 so they have been around for several years. Since that time oil quality, cooling and metals have made them pretty reliable.
searcyfarms
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turbo 101 -
they help a lot in many applications elevation being one
they are more fuel efficient if you arent loading them and at full throttle all the time
its a bad idea on some to haul them down the road where air forced into the exhaust can rotate the turbo as it does not have oil when engine is not running - most exhaust systems now arent as bad about this as they used to be but just a good note of caution
NEVER rev up the engine like a teenager with a race car and kill the engine, the turbo gets spun up and then you shut off the engine w/out oil going to it and it can cause bearing wear over time shortening the life
if you have been running hard/working it your machine, let it idle or very slow RPM for a couple mins to cool down things before shutting off the engine to get the EGTs down, this help s with many things not just the turbo -
i have many engines with turbos and have had over the years - i have yet to have a turbo failure from any generation of technology - have i been lucky? or are they just that good and if you care for them they will treat you well
they help a lot in many applications elevation being one
they are more fuel efficient if you arent loading them and at full throttle all the time
its a bad idea on some to haul them down the road where air forced into the exhaust can rotate the turbo as it does not have oil when engine is not running - most exhaust systems now arent as bad about this as they used to be but just a good note of caution
NEVER rev up the engine like a teenager with a race car and kill the engine, the turbo gets spun up and then you shut off the engine w/out oil going to it and it can cause bearing wear over time shortening the life
if you have been running hard/working it your machine, let it idle or very slow RPM for a couple mins to cool down things before shutting off the engine to get the EGTs down, this help s with many things not just the turbo -
i have many engines with turbos and have had over the years - i have yet to have a turbo failure from any generation of technology - have i been lucky? or are they just that good and if you care for them they will treat you well