ELIO - has anybody driven one ? (84mpg)

[Scooby074]

I thought a local group bought the factory for re-purposing?

 

[adventure bob]

My issue with vehicles like the elio is that the performance/fuel economy doesn't scale. A vehicle this small and light should get way better fuel mileage. It weighs a 1/4 of what a VW Passat does yet barely doubles the fuel economy of the diesel Passat). It also adds an inconvenience factor with regards to passengers and carrying stuff. While I admit that Im usually the only person in my vehicle 90% of the time, I can carry more if I need to. Its kinda like a chevy volt which has been called a $12000 car with a $20000 drive system that manages 34MPG and is only good for 38miles of ev driving. Not sure of the point.

 

[3930dave]

I thought a local group bought the factory for re-purposing?

I can't say I really know the latest.... it sounded like they were working with a major local real estate developer - makes sense.

Heard something about a minor law suit..... always a few bumps launching some like this......

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

My issue with vehicles like the elio is that the performance/fuel economy doesn't scale. A vehicle this small and light should get way better fuel mileage. It weighs a 1/4 of what a VW Passat does yet barely doubles the fuel economy of the diesel Passat). It also adds an inconvenience factor with regards to passengers and carrying stuff. While I admit that Im usually the only person in my vehicle 90% of the time, I can carry more if I need to. Its kinda like a chevy volt which has been called a $12000 car with a $20000 drive system that manages 34MPG and is only good for 38miles of ev driving. Not sure of the point.

I understand your point.... but you are kinda comparing apples and coconuts..... thanks to the Extra Profit Always folks, a company like Elio would be fully committing to financial suicide by launching in the USA, and trying to kick off with a diesel motor.

A more fair comparison would be to VW's gas motors. I think Elio does scale OK (for a gas motor), but would say that the change is not really as linear as we'd like to see. But, that's mostly limited by Physics.

My stock street motorcycle (500cc) gets 60 mpg. If I can buy an Elio for that low price, with AC, and it gets 84mpg Hiway, I'd say the engineers have done well, with a gas motor.

As the founder put it, talking about how it came about - "When I take my kids camping, I want to drive my minivan, for the space it has. Most of the time, I don't need all that space though".

As a second vehicle in a "normal" suburban/rural household, something like this is perfect for the 90% single occupant use.

Will it be suitable for everybody ? No.

Will enough early buyers sign up to support production ? At the target price point, my opinion is yes. After that, end customer experience over the first 20k miles will be the next key metric.

Rgds, D.

 

[Midniteoyl]

MPG doesnt scale linearly..

 

[adventure bob]

"MPG doesnt scale linearly.." Neither does the convenience factor and thus the point. To get the advertised 84 MPG you give up over half a car and whole bunch of convenience and utility. Its not a great motorcycle and its not a great car. These types of vehicles have been attempted in the past with little commercial success. You have to ask "what have they done to separate themselves form their predecessors? What's their unique strategy that can overcome the failures of the past? Why would they succeed when so many others have attempted the same type of vehicle and failed?"
While its an idea is with some merit, history has shown this type of vehicle to be a novelty at best; destined to be another Segway... Unless they have some really unique strategy that isn't clear on their site or from the product info.

 

[Midniteoyl]

While I mostly agree, the same was said about the SMART.. Though at least that is a side by side.

 

[slowzuki]

Why should it get way more fuel economy? Hwy mpg is almost all about drag and its got about 1/2 the drag of a small car or motorbike. In town weight becomes the main factor so without becoming an expensive hybrid or incorp some kind of regen braking there isn't much you can do.

My issue with vehicles like the elio is that the performance/fuel economy doesn't scale. A vehicle this small and light should get way better fuel mileage. It weighs a 1/4 of what a VW Passat does yet barely doubles the fuel economy of the diesel Passat). It also adds an inconvenience factor with regards to passengers and carrying stuff. While I admit that Im usually the only person in my vehicle 90% of the time, I can carry more if I need to. Its kinda like a chevy volt which has been called a $12000 car with a $20000 drive system that manages 34MPG and is only good for 38miles of ev driving. Not sure of the point.

 

[Scooby074]

I can't say I really know the latest.... it sounded like they were working with a major local real estate developer - makes sense.

Heard something about a minor law suit..... always a few bumps launching some like this......

Rgds, D.

Didnt hear anything about a lawsuit. What was it about?

 

[Scooby074]

Just stumbled across this "analysis" for the Elio business plan. Its not pretty. Guy is pretty brutal and makes a few good points. Hope Elio has changed their numbers since this was done, but if he's budgeting on sales of 250,000 units/ year like this site implies, he's completely out to lunch. 250,000 is ALOT of cars, a lot of "normal" cars, a 3 wheeler, commuter vehicle will never see those kinds of numbers.

Gas 2 | What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.

 

[3930dave]

I saw a short reference to this lawsuit in a blog somewhere..... this is what I could dig up first pass.... As I recall, the company/developer is looking at putting up something like $200MM for the factory. As is normal for launching something like this, various levels of govt were likely publicly approached for a contribution.

Caddo commissioner must file as private citizen in Elio Motors d - KSLA News 12 Shreveport, Louisiana News Weather & Sports

Could be nothing more than a councillor trying to make a name as Fiscal Guardian, or someone who has a relationship with a real estate interest that has other plans for that old factory/site....

There's an old nothern european saying that goes something like "You can get used to anything, even an hanging", so perhaps I'm a little "conditioned" by where I live. While I would dearly love to see some (any !) fiscal restraint being practiced in Ontario, I've watched the auto industry here long enough to know that a $7.5MM grant doesn't even qualify as Petty Cash, in that industry. I could say more, but that's probably enough drift in this direction for this forum (don't want the thread modded for Polly Ticks).

It would be a shame to see this project, and those jobs, killed over a relatively trivial amount.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Text from link I just posted...... Rgds, D.

Posted: Sep 04, 2013 6:04 AM EDT Updated: Sep 18, 2013 6:05 AM EDT
By Amber Edwards - email

Caddo Commissioner Stephanie Lynch Caddo Commissioner Stephanie Lynch

CADDO PARISH, LA (KSLA) -

Elio Motors is working out a deal to get them into the old General Motors plant in West Shreveport. But one commissioner wants to block the purchase of the former GM plant with a lawsuit.

Commissioner Stephanie Lynch was the only one of 12 commissioners to vote against a $7.5 million dollar deal which would put Industrial Realty Group in charge of the facility. A hearing for Lynch's lawsuit was held Tuesday afternoon.

But it didn't get very far. After Judge Leon Emanuel chose to accept a new amendment by Lynch. The amendment established Lynch would appear before court as a private citizen and not as a commissioner. It also dismisses the Caddo Parish Commission and the Industrial Developmental Board from the lawsuit and instead, sues Caddo Parish. Because of that, the court can't move forward until the Caddo Parish administrator is served with the lawsuit.

The attorney representing the commission, Dannye Malone, considers Tuesday's hearing a small victory. "The hearing today affirmed what I believed all along. Mrs. Lynch filed suit against the wrong party," says Malone.

Lynch says she will not be dropping her lawsuit anytime soon. "Certainly, we are going to continue fighting to make sure that we're not flushing $7.5 million dollars down the drain," says Lynch.

Judge Emanuel expects the Caddo Parish administrator to be served with the suit by Friday. A hearing is also expected to be set by Wednesday, September 11th.

 

[Scooby074]

Nothing wrong with creating jobs... but it has to be a sound investment!

I dont like political grandstanding because of some political ideology instead of putting your constituents wishes and best interest first.

Did you happen to read the link in my earlier post... If somebody had those numbers in their business plan, Id question their wisdom too!

 

[3930dave]

Nothing wrong with creating jobs... but it has to be a sound investment!

I dont like political grandstanding because of some political ideology instead of putting your constituents wishes and best interest first.

Did you happen to read the link in my earlier post... If somebody had those numbers in their business plan, Id question their wisdom too!

Seeing your reference to 250k was enough (I've read enough of your posts to trust your opinion). A quick look at the article now.... the other breakdowns aren't pretty.

Most engineers I know are pretty hard-nosed about numbers.... something isn't making sense, and I don't just mean the reported projections.

A start up (got those Tshirts) today probably needs to launch out of an incubator. Unfortunately, with the race to shut down manufacturing here, most incubators aren't oriented to scale something like a commercial car launch.

I like to see business stand/run on it's own merits. That said, I do recognize the reality of the car business though - after watching the mountains of money that get thrown at the big players in Ontario, I don't think it is realistic to expect a small company to launch w/o govt help.

I like the engineering I've seen so far, I often like to root for the underdog, and I believe this platform addresses well a product/affordability hole in the market.

As I said earlier, the other factors besides engineering are a bigger obstacle at this time, IMO.

Not that they're done engineering, as that never really ends.....

Rgds, D.

 

[HHR]

Appears that the drivers license issue is pretty much worked out nationally.
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/11/18/5923704/elio-motors-judicial-success-continues.htmlhttp://www.sacbee.com/2013/11/18/5923704/elio-motors-judicial-success-continues.html

 

[3930dave]

Appears that the drivers license issue is pretty much worked out nationally.
Elio Motors' Judicial Success Continues With American Association of Motor Vehicles Administration Policy Recommendation - PR Newswire - The Sacramento BeeElio Motors' Judicial Success Continues With American Association of Motor Vehicles Administration Policy Recommendation - PR Newswire - The Sacramento Bee

Excellent news. Doubly so, $ wise, as most jurisdictions charge less to plate a motorcycle.

I was thinking yesterday about what you could buy new, for around that money. Most people here won't ride a 2 wheel motorcycle less than 500cc on the street. Picking a mainstream Honda, it's about $5500 USD. (CB500F)

2014 CB500F Overview - Honda Powersports

As much as I'd love to live somewhere I could ride 2 wheels year around, I know I'd much prefer to send a kid away to college in an Elio, than on a bike, or in a 10+ year old clunker.

Just to pick one use.... I'd buy one for myself, too.

Rgds, D.

 

[Scooby074]

Seeing your reference to 250k was enough (I've read enough of your posts to trust your opinion). A quick look at the article now.... the other breakdowns aren't pretty.

Most engineers I know are pretty hard-nosed about numbers.... something isn't making sense, and I don't just mean the reported projections.

A start up (got those Tshirts) today probably needs to launch out of an incubator. Unfortunately, with the race to shut down manufacturing here, most incubators aren't oriented to scale something like a commercial car launch.

I like to see business stand/run on it's own merits. That said, I do recognize the reality of the car business though - after watching the mountains of money that get thrown at the big players in Ontario, I don't think it is realistic to expect a small company to launch w/o govt help.

I like the engineering I've seen so far, I often like to root for the underdog, and I believe this platform addresses well a product/affordability hole in the market.

As I said earlier, the other factors besides engineering are a bigger obstacle at this time, IMO.

Not that they're done engineering, as that never really ends.....

Rgds, D.

Thanks for the vote of confidence

As you mention, its a HUGE undertaking to launch a car company.. Mountains of money is an understatement. I think that was the root of the article. I dont want to use the word scam-artist like he sort of did, but....

I mean look at Tesla. Big names involved. Proven product. Lots of advertising. And they arent moving that many cars considering. They are on the other end of the price / technology spectrum however.

I wish Elio the best.. but some things arent adding up (or he has unrealistic expectations). Im surprised nobody has brought this idea back to earth.. I guess nobody wants to be critical of the potential even if it is pie in the sky:confused3:

If they were "smart" they'd just buy the molds and rights to the 90's Suzuki Swift. Back in the day those things were cheap and got real high mileage. My buddy had several Fireflys and Swifts.

 

[Milo]

I don't understand why anyone would give away a deposit to that company? Best case is they get your money for free (no interest), worst case (which is the most likely scenario IMO) it never makes it to market and they go belly up.

Just stumbled across this "analysis" for the Elio business plan. Its not pretty. Guy is pretty brutal and makes a few good points. Hope Elio has changed their numbers since this was done, but if he's budgeting on sales of 250,000 units/ year like this site implies, he's completely out to lunch. 250,000 is ALOT of cars, a lot of "normal" cars, a 3 wheeler, commuter vehicle will never see those kinds of numbers.

Gas 2 | What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.

 

[3930dave]

I don't understand why anyone would give away a deposit to that company? Best case is they get your money for free (no interest), worst case (which is the most likely scenario IMO) it never makes it to market and they go belly up.

Electronic social networks have begat crowd-source-funding.

Top ten crowdsourced funding platforms | Dowser

Any startup company is a risk; having worked long hours at low pay at more than 1 of 'em, I know that painfully well.

"Skin in the Game". The people who are putting down deposits on an Elio are voting with their wallets - demonstrating in a real (often the only way that matters, to most of society) way that they are not content with the status quo, and want to see an alternative product like this brought to production.

In a general way "Skin in the Game" (commitment psychology) matters more than the money. What I mean is that while the $7.5MM being debated in that parish is a lot of money to me, and most people, in the car manufacturing game it is sub-atomic sized. What mattters more than the money is the demonstration of buy-in and commitment to seeing the plant be successful.

Part of my perspective on this comes from seeing a Japanese car plant being jerked around by the nearest major city (not the town it is closest to).

Many recent, very successful companies got their start from crowd-sourced-funding. I think of it as the ongoing disintermediation affect of the internet - in this case, on the VC community.

Not that the tradtional VC community is probably that scared yet.... as most of this micro financing is below their interest level. For now.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Thanks for the vote of confidence

As you mention, its a HUGE undertaking to launch a car company.. Mountains of money is an understatement. I think that was the root of the article. I dont want to use the word scam-artist like he sort of did, but....

I mean look at Tesla. Big names involved. Proven product. Lots of advertising. And they arent moving that many cars considering. They are on the other end of the price / technology spectrum however.

I wish Elio the best.. but some things arent adding up (or he has unrealistic expectations). Im surprised nobody has brought this idea back to earth.. I guess nobody wants to be critical of the potential even if it is pie in the sky:confused3:

If they were "smart" they'd just buy the molds and rights to the 90's Suzuki Swift. Back in the day those things were cheap and got real high mileage. My buddy had several Fireflys and Swifts.

I think in terms of start up component costs, the best approach is to use an existing motor. Small gas ones, like Suzuki would be great. For most other parts of the planet, a small diesel motor would be the holy grail for this platform.

Engineers like custom for certain things. As they've already publicized a new engine design, they might "Osborne" the whole car by dropping back to an off-the-shelf motor though. That would alleviate the concerns like "where do I get an ignition coil for an Elio" though, that some people may have....

Only one of thousands of trade-offs to be decided, launching something like this....

Rgds, D.