Engine Overhaul

[Litdave]

Hello Everbody,

First, let me say, I have been searching the web for tractor information and this site seems to be by far the best site on the web.

I just recently joined this board but I have been hanging around for the last month. I just bought 4 ac and I am getting ready to buy a tractor.

The question I have is: How much would it cost for me (parts and maching labor only) to rebuild a Ford/New Holland 1720. I have found a 1997 for $3500 but it has spun a crank bearing. The tractor is in good condition otherwise.

I have rebuilt quite a few automotive gasoline engines and rebuilding a diesel doesn't seem like it would be much different except for the injectors and injector pumps.

Any opinions would be very much appreciated not only on the cost of the overhaul but also the tractor's value and any problem areas I should be aware of.

Thanks, Dave

 

[Deerlope]

I am by no means an auto mechanic, but I would have to wonder that if that tracor was worked hard enought to cause the engine to spin a bearing what else is getting weak. Someone esle that has had these tractor will chim in I hope.

 

[CTyler]

I don't know what the parts would cost. What parts you need kinda depends on what else happened when the bearing spun.
Did anything get bent and or cracked? You should be able to get prices from a dealer on replacement crank, rod, piston etc.. If the crank just needs turned and new bearings then great otherwise it will add up quick if tractors are anything like boat motors(Most likely much worse being a diesel).

How many hours does it have on it? Is it about due for a rebuild anyway?(Read as Mo money) What is one of these tractors worth(Running) with the hours that are on it.

I've built a number a gas street and race engines myself. Unless I could inspect the engine or talk to the qualified mech that examined it, I'd have to assume the worst.

I'd scope the engine if its' not apart.

 

[kevinj]

You need to know if the spun bearing is a rod or main. A rod is no big deal, if a main is spun you will need a block or some expensive machine work.

 

[Litdave]

Thanks, Guys

Here is what i know.

The tractor has been partially disasembled. The bearing that was spun was on the rod. One rod may be bad but the block is OK.

The pan had a lot metal in the bottom when it was pulled.

I don't know why the bearing spun, but I would suspect it was due to negligence/low oil.

The tractor is a 1997 and it has 1600 hours on it and it was used for golf course maintainace. I suspect the hardest thing this tractor done was mow grass. It has turf tires on it.

I have no reason to suspect that there are anyother problems with the tractor - but no guarantees.

Overall it is a pretty clean looking tractor with a live PTO, 4WD, and good rubber.

 

[Junkman]

The real question is why doesn't the present owner repair it if it isn't that badly damaged. A spun bearing isn't that big of a deal. Most times the journal can be turned an new bearings fitted. I would b inclined to check the cylinders for additional problems. It might be that you will have to go with over sized pistons, etc to properly repair this engine. I would suggest that you talk to a company that does diesel engine rebuilding and get a idea of cost from them. They will be familiar with what usually needs to be reconditioned on the engine and probably have worked on that model before. In rebuilding engines, it is always the learning curve that take its toll of time. I agree, it was probably poor maintenance that killed this tractor, but golf courses and cemeteries are known for this...

 

[Litdave]

Junkman (and others),

The story is getting complicated. The original owner had a bussiness taking care of golfcourses. He has gone bankrupt. The tractor is currently at a dealer where it is partially torn down.

The tractor is actually owned by a bank who will pay the dealer to "patch up the tractor" and then sell it for $6000. The problem is the bank only wants to "patch" the tractor with a welded and turned crank and new bearings.

I think the whole engine needs to be torn apart and all of the remaining metal particles flushed out and other parts inspected for damage. Otherwise I don't think the engine is going to last. The bank doesn't care wants it gets it's money and the dealer won't warranty the "patch job".

If I buy the tractor "as is" I can buy it $2500 cheaper. The question really boils down to can I rebuild the engine (or have it rebuilt) properly for $2500 dollars.

I think I can buy a short block for $3000.

I think I can rebuild it myself for about $2000 in parts including a new crank, boring the cylinder and oversize pistons. This does not include head work or injector work.

This is what I am inclined to do but I have never rebuilt a diesel engine, only gas engines.

I was wondering what you guys thought of someone rebuiding a diesel engine with no prior diesel experience and also is there any "gothas" that I should know about.

I would also replace the clutches while it is apart if they show any significant wear.

Thanks again, Dave

 

[5030]

Litdave:

I am going to stick my neck out a bit here. The rest of you guys please don't bite me as I don't know the mechanical abilities of the poster.

A diesel engine is the same as a gasoline engine (basically). Diesels are built heavier because the increase in compression puts an added strain on the components internally and externally. A gasoline engine has a carburetor or fuel injected and the mixture is ignited by a spark whereas a diesel engine is injected, but the mixture is ignited by compression pressure heating the mixture to ignition temperature.

Gas and diesel engines share the same type of parts internally so if you can rebuild a gasoline engine, you should be able to rebuild a diesel engine. With a couple of exceptions.

Keep your fingers out of the injection pump or should I say a screwdriver or wrench. Don't disassemble the injectors either.

If you want either of these items rebuilt or checked, take them to a dealer or better yet, to a diesel injection specialist.

I'd invest in a shop manual for the tractor and I don't mean the generic variety. I mean the factory authorized manual.

Proceed carefully and you should be all right.

 

[Litdave]

5030,

This is what I was hoping to hear.


I am going to stick my neck out a bit here. The rest of you guys please don't bite me as I don't know the mechanical abilities of the poster.

--- Understood


A diesel engine is the same as a gasoline engine (basically). Diesels are built heavier because the increase in compression puts an added strain on the components internally and externally. A gasoline engine has a carburetor or fuel injected and the mixture is ignited by a spark whereas a diesel engine is injected, but the mixture is ignited by compression pressure heating the mixture to ignition temperature.

--- This is what I thought.


Gas and diesel engines share the same type of parts internally so if you can rebuild a gasoline engine, you should be able to rebuild a diesel engine. With a couple of exceptions.

--- This is also what I thought.


Keep your fingers out of the injection pump or should I say a screwdriver or wrench. Don't disassemble the injectors either.

If you want either of these items rebuilt or checked, take them to a dealer or better yet, to a diesel injection specialist.

--- I allready understand that injectors are not something for the untrained to mess with and I would not attempt to do so. If I susspect anything wrong with the injectors/pump I would take it to somebody who knows what they are doing.


I'd invest in a shop manual for the tractor and I don't mean the generic variety. I mean the factory authorized manual.

--- Good advice, I wouldn't attempt and engine rebuild without one.


Proceed carefully and you should be all right.

--- Thanks, Dave

 

[higgy]

depending on the engine there are other slight differences. The blok my be wet or dry sleved requireing setting and possible sealing of the sleves, not hard but different. I called by ford shop on this and they state that there is not a rebuild kit for this engine, all parts need to be bought individually, in fact when buying rod bearings they are sold by the half bearing /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif so you need to buy two for each rod. He stated that there are about 4 serial number breaks for that model tractor and you should get the s/n of the tractor and see what break the engine is in. Gaskets can be bought as a set.

There are numerous pistons and ring varations used and you will need to make sure that the ones you get are proper.

The other statement he made is that the parts are "spendy" but if you buy the tractor right, who cares?

Dane

 

[Junkman]

I am in agreement with Daryl on this also. One thing to remember, it isn't cheap to weld up a crank and have it turned. As for the bank owning it, I would go to the banks loan department manager and have a pocket of cash along with me and make him an offer that is somewhat on the low side. Take it from there and negotiate a price that you can live with and he can justify to his bosses. They don't want to be in the tractor repair business or the tractor sales business either. They just want out as fast and cheap as they can. Whatever deal you make, get it in writing that they are responsible for paying off the dealer. If possible, have the dealer deliver all the parts and the tractor to your home. It won't cost that much and will help you to keep a good relationship with the dealer. You don't want to be looking for parts that are missing. Once you make the deal, then get the tractor out of the dealership ASAP. I know what I am talking about here because I have made these type deals in the past. The dealer is probably trying to buy the tractor also. He sees a profit to be made if he can "steal" it and won't be happy if you make a better deal than he has offered. You can bet that he has already made them a low ball offer on the tractor that they have turned down. This is to your advantage, because your offer will need to be higher, but not by much. Just enough to pay the dealer for the work that has been performed so far. Try to stay on good terms with the dealer and lead him to believe that you will be buying all the parts from him, even if you are not. You can win more friends with honey than with vinegar. If he can see $$ coming his way, even if he doesn't own or repair it, he will be very agreeable. Personally, I would go for it, but remember it is a gamble. No one knows exactly what the exact condition of the engine is until it is totally torn down. You must be a gambling man to want to take this type of gamble. I have won and I have lost. The idea is to win more times than you loose to be ahead in game. Good luck.... and don't be afraid to walk away if it doesn't go the way you hope. Better to have tried and lost, than not have tried at all. The dealer still has a relationship with the bank and won't want to jeopardize that either. All of this is to your advantage....... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[normde2001]

Seems to me , if the tractor is worth $6,000 in running condition, $3,500 is to much to pay for it with unknown engine condition. It has been my experience that shortblocks, ($3,000), + reworking the head, is usually cheaper and more reliable than an overhaul. I believe, for $3,500, you will either go in the hole, or at least get nothing for your labor.

 

[powerstroke2000]

A 1720 is a compact tractor right

If so I got one word JAPAN $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ok maybe some more
One does NH even offer a shortblock anymore?
Two golfcourses normal do not take care of anything they just run it
Three is Japanese part are going to be $$$$$

I would just let it sit right where it is at

 

[Litdave]

Yes, the tractor was made in Japan by Shaburi (spelling?)

Yes, the parts are expensive.

Yes, New Holland does offer a short block. I have gotten a price of $2850 with no core charge.

As far as tractor value. I have had a hard time establishing the value of this tractor. I have seen several "asking prices" considerably over $10000. I have been quoted a trade-in values out of a price guide of $7,200. I have talked to a couple of dealears (not the one with the tractor, see below) and they both indicated the tractor should be worth quite a bit more the $6,000.

As an interesting note, the dealer with the tractor said he would not give over $3,500 for the tractor even if it was running. Kind of indicates (as Junkman was saying) that he wants the tractor. But I was talking to his mechanic and he thought the tractor would be worth $7,500 easy.

Dave

 

[art]

With a loader it would be worth that kind of money. There are different places to get parts, but I would never use anyone other than the manufacturers head gasket. How is the sheet metal?

 

[higgy]

This is the way to save money, use elbo grease. I think you will be alright, just go in with your eyes wide open, buy with your brain and not your feelings, there are more out there.

Do you have access to or have the tools that you will be needing to finish this job such as dial indicatiors, inside and outside micrometers, torque wrench, cam bearing installer, piston ring compressor, you may need to rent a liner puller/installer, feeler gauges, engine stand, floor jacks for when you put the tractor together etc. The other way to look at it is I need these tools for this job and it is a great reason (read excuse) to stock the old tool box.

Just go in with your eyes open.

Good luck, wou may love the project.

Dane

 

[pabelote]

got a little 1700 an its a pullin little rascal. if all you savein is few hundred dollars id go crate. in an out not alot of down time

 

[cowboydoc]

In good shape and running that tractor should be worth from $8900 to $11,525. The first thing before you tear into it is to get the shop manual. If you're smart enough to rebuild a gas motor you'll be fine doing this one with the shop manual. Just remember with rebuilds figure high. You never know what else you are going to have to do. If they neglected it enough that the motor is bad it's a possibility you could have bad injectors, pump, etc. and those are high priced as well. I agree with the other poster that I would go to the bank with a wad of cash. Usually these guys are just wanting to unload and go on. As far as the rebuild with the shop manual you will be just fine.

 

[Litdave]

cowboydoc.

Thanks for the value estimate. It agrees with some of the other values I have come up with. This, along with the good reputation of these tractors, is why I am considering this.


higgy,

I do have all the neccessary tools, equipment, and a shop. I restore/rebuild older classic chevy trucks for a hobby. Working on this tractor might be kind of fun.

everyone,

Does anyone know where I might find a used servicable crank (or engine) that wouldn't need anything worse than turning/polishing?

If I can't find a good used crank, I will probably wind up going with a new short block. The dealer I priced the short block from said he might be interested in my old block. If he gave me say $350(?) for the entire original short block, it would only cost me about $500 more to go with a new short block.

Thanks to everyone, Dave