Ethanol on the Ropes?

[jake98]

As they should, if a product can't stand on its own, it shouldn't stand at all.

Ain't that the truth..

and don't forget that the mexicans have curtailed their agave crop so it's raising the price of tequila too.

 

[crazyal]

All energy is subsidized. Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Bio and yes Oil. It takes a mighty big Navy to keep those middle east shipping lanes open. Without a doubt oil is the most subsidized energy on the planet. Until we find the perfect energy I guess this debate will go on forever.

I can't answer for other countries but unlike every other thing you listed (nuke, wind, bio, solar) oil actually produces royalties that offset the subsidies. Since we get very little oil from the mid east I would guess we would be there oil or not.

Secondly the subsidies given to the oil companies are to keep them exploring for oil in our country. If they were dropped tomorrow I doubt it would make one difference in the price of oil.

 

[Ken45101]

As they should, if a product can't stand on its own, it shouldn't stand at all.

:thumbsup:

applause!

 

[mmurphy]

The jobs that come with this are taken from the people that would have had them by working in the real economy.

Please help me understand what job?

 

[mmurphy]

Do you have any idea what ethanol did to the cattle market? We went from $1.30 per pound on feeder calves to 70 cent a pound on heifers and 80 cent on steers. Beef cattle inventory fell to 1958 levels. Fertilizer went from $230 per ton to over $700 per ton when corn went to $7 a bu. Diesel fuel went from 72 cent per gal. to close to $4 per gal. Machinery cost went through the roof too. Now I know all the increase wasn't due to ethanol but I also know it played a big part in it too.
If our country was serious about ethanol then from where I live south would have been in on the deal and not used corn for the ethanol. There are millions of acres of land that was used for tobacco that is idle today. Lots of it is just growing up in brush. All that land could have been used and the supply could have been on the east coast where it wouldn't have to be shipped so far. And think of the jobs created in farming. The $7 corn will leave the corn farmer and when it does they'll be left with high input cost that was mainly cause by ethanol. any time a farmer gets an increase in income the hands come out to get all they can of it.

This was caused more by greed in stock markets, and anyone else who could get fingers in the cookie jar.
Every time Bush and wack job had there little fits, price of crude would go up each and every time. The stock maarket started speculating with the price of crude to price of corn on account of that.
Now some one admits to land sitting idle from not growing tobacco. Seems to me a good place to grow food since everyone is starving.

 

[Duffster]

It is said that Ethanol reduces imports by a factor of 7 to 1 since the primary energy inputs of ethanol are domestic coal and NG.

Current ethanol yield studies that include by products are showing a BTU gain of ~1.67.

 

[mmurphy]

While we all want to stop giving our energy dollars to those who may not love us we do need to look at options BUT with sound long term logic and not just knee jerk reactions that are self serving.:thumbsup:

I can agree with this. The problem is, if the plugged is pulled all at once we would have such a chain reaction that would be devastating to many.
If we pull from here then all energy including oil subsidies need to be ended also.

 

[Ken45101]

It is said that Ethanol reduces imports by a factor of 7 to 1 since the primary energy inputs of ethanol are domestic coal and NG.

There are many things that "are said". Most of them are false.

"Primary energy inputs"? I haven't seen any tractors or trucks running on coal or NG. Yes, fertilizer may be made by NG and it is used for drying the corn. I'm really dubious that much coal is used since coal isn't readily available in most of the corn belt.

Now some one admits to land sitting idle from not growing tobacco. Seems to me a good place to grow food since everyone is starving.

i don't think there is "land sitting idle from not growing tobacco".

#1 - under the old system, tobacco was mostly grown on small plots, quarter to one acre plots, usually on ground not suitable for growing anything other than pasture.

#2 - under the new system (which is still strong), tobacco is being grown in larger fields.

 

[beppington]

I have defended ethanol, and still do. The fact that ethanol is subsidized, took it off the farmers being paid to leave ground set idle. Ethanol has paid back greatly to the economics for many, including farmers, factories and so on. Most people say it is raising the price of food. Ha Ha!! I would bet if all the ethanol plants shut down right now, in the next 2 to 3 years the price will keep inflating.

When the price of corn drops afterwards, farm ground will go idle again and farmers will need more help, and so would the jobless of many who rely on the jobs. The jobs that come with this is not just people working at ethanol plants, and or farms.

I hope Willy Nelson gets his rolled cig out for another farm relief aid!!!! I am reminded we still have subsidies for oil companies to. How I know? GOP was bragging about it last election and they said it was good for the country. Maybe they are right. Ethanol is good for the country also.

All that corrupt subsidies BS just is what it is ... none of us are ever gonna be able to stop it or fix it, not matter what form it takes on in any particular era ... I just hate ethanol because of the problems it causes to my engines. Knowing it's a complete waste of gasoline, corn, money, miles-per-gallon, etc. just makes me even angrier.

 

[Duffster]

There are many things that "are said". Most of them are false.

Like a lot of the comments in this thread.

"Primary energy inputs"? I haven't seen any tractors or trucks running on coal or NG. Yes, fertilizer may be made by NG and it is used for drying the corn. I'm really dubious that much coal is used since coal isn't readily available in most of the corn belt.

Really? There are mountains of coal sitting next to the Mississippi river.

Coal is used to produce electricity, heat at some ethanol plants and some fertilizers.

Truck and tractor fuel is a small fraction of the energy needed to produce ethanol.