Everlast plasma?

[KubotaOwner]

Au Contraire..

On other weld forums, anything derogatory to everlast is promptly deleted, and/or subsequently locked. Posters with issues are even advised not to post their problems any longer, because they WILL be deleted. everlast pays to control this forum, and you do it rather effectively. I have less problem with everlast being an inferior Chinese product, that the manner in which these "bought and paid for" forums are administrated.
Just notice how a competitor, and one that offers a quality piece of equipment, are treated.

So, how are complaints handled?? Do you mean to say that of all the low quality equipment sold here there are no problems??

While it's true I was born at night .... It wasn't LAST night.

I own 2 Everlast products, PA 160STH and a PP60 that I use regularly and am VERY pleased with their construction, performance and reliability. I have NO problem recommending these products. "American made" is meaningless anymore. Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

 

[jimcolt]

"American made" is meaningless anymore."

To this statement....this is certainly debatable. If you value buying products that have the labor content of their manufacturing done by taxpaying US workers that earn a respectable living (enough to support their families and childrens health and education)...then American made is not meaningless. It means something to me for sure.

In many cases, American Made means that the product was designed and engineered in America, reliability tested in America, assembled with accepted quality control practices here, and supported after the sale from the same location it was designed at. That means something in regards to a good quality product that will have some long term support.

" Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas"

This statement is true. This is why (as an example) Iphones are produced in China with excellent performance and quality. This adds cost to product no matter where it was built! Imagine what an Iphone would cost if the workers made more than $2/hour!

However in the case of products "made in America" previously discussed on this thread....there is more done than just "populating a circuit board". In well designed and built products the circuit boards are designed for specific performance, application and MTBF (mean time before failure). In the case of plasma circuit boards ...they have to be designed to control current, to control output pulse width modulated waveforms, to work with specific torches to properly time the power up and down ramps, air pressure and flow timing, starting (pilot) current, etc.) Use a different torch and these functions must change. Well....only if you care about cut quality and consumable life!

Many of the low cost plasma units have interchangeable boards, work with a variety of generic torches (mostly copies of old designs), and are not conformally coated, HiPot tested...or CE/CSA approved. Simply not the same. Yes, all plasma cutters cut metal. No, they do not cut with exactly the same quality, and the consumable life varies wildly from design to other designs.

Again though.....if low cost is more important than cut quality, reliability and operating cost...then the low cost welders and plasma systems may be the best option. It is great to have a wide range of choices!

Jim Colt



Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.[/QUOTE]

 

[newbury]

if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

I think that many times, as for example Harbor Freight stuff, the Chinese quality control is left to the end consumer. If it fails they replace it. My Chinese, Jinma, chipper has a bolt hole for the chute drilled wrong, I live with it.

But then American mfg messes up also. My Woodmizer LT10 came with the motor mounting plate only having three holes for a motor with 4 bolts. Sure, send it back, be without for who knows how long, or fix it myself.

Since so often the failure rate on the complicated electronics is highest when new failures during the early warranty period are taken care of under warranty.

But since I was able to get an everlast 300 amp stick welder for $280 versus a miller for a few thousand the tradeoffs were too great.

It seems to me that there are a lot of American companies now that are relying on lawyers for their "Made in the USA" labels. They only have to produce "a substantial portion" of the item in the US.

As a wannabe hobby welder the cost of the initial equipment was always what prevented me from getting a welder. I probably should have jumped on the Everlast 80 plasma cutter at the Amazon price in the second post, but $250 is about what SWMBO considers "no questions asked". $700 would have brought "do you really need that since you haven't used your 300 amp welder yet?". And I'm sure $1,000 for a Hypertherm would have caused dissension.

 

[jimcolt]

Just being an American manufacturer certainly does not ensure quality or performance. You have to have the correct procedures and the ability to produce consistent products. ISO9001, CSA, CE, UL and other organizations help you meet standards and be consistent, but internal controls, policies and "Black Belt" quality control people are what makes good consistent quality. That can be done anywhere, but it does take extra effort and it does affect the price of products no matter where they are built / assembled.

I am 100% sure that we could build Hypertherm plasma cutters anywhere in the world, as long as the factories were set up the same, all of the control procedures were the same, and you compensated your employees to the point that they actually enjoy coming to work. Good pay and benefits, profit sharing or an ESOP employee ownership program. Trust me....ownership makes a difference in the quality of the product as well as the productivity of the workforce.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[BlacknTan]

I own 2 Everlast products, PA 160STH and a PP60 that I use regularly and am VERY pleased with their construction, performance and reliability. I have NO problem recommending these products. "American made" is meaningless anymore. Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

Does everlast ship free Kool-Aid with these machines??

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten .."

"Quality doesn't cost ... It pays.."

BTW, some of what you say is true about electronics, but there are Mil-Spec components, while not immune to failure, are far more reliable. Does Neverlast, ooooops, sorry, everlast use high quality electronics in their units. Are their units inspected and "run-in" before shipment, or is the consumer the inspector?

Everyone is different .. that's what makes the world go 'round, but if I can't afford a decent tool, I hold off on the purchase until I can.

 

[KubotaOwner]

Does everlast ship free Kool-Aid with these machines??

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten .."

"Quality doesn't cost ... It pays.."

BTW, some of what you say is true about electronics, but there are Mil-Spec components, while not immune to failure, are far more reliable. Does Neverlast, ooooops, sorry, everlast use high quality electronics in their units. Are their units inspected and "run-in" before shipment, or is the consumer the inspector?

Everyone is different .. that's what makes the world go 'round, but if I can't afford a decent tool, I hold off on the purchase until I can.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most "mil-spec components" today are manufactured outside the US. You could never afford to buy a mil-spec product as an individual. I worked in the military electronics field my entire career and am somewhat familiar. Everlast, like many other high quality welding equipment suppliers, are ISO9001 certified, which is the INTERNATIONAL quality standard for manufacturing.

Your witticsms are certainly relevant which is why you need to be discriminating about where you buy a product. You make your decision based on things like what standards, if any, a product is manufactured to such as ISO9001.

I did not receive Kool-aid with my Everlast products, I received a well made product with a good warranty that, to date has proven to be reliable at a much lower price than many of the competitors. If you prefer to pay lots more for "American made" products - have at it.

 

[KubotaOwner]

"American made" is meaningless anymore."

To this statement....this is certainly debatable. If you value buying products that have the labor content of their manufacturing done by taxpaying US workers that earn a respectable living (enough to support their families and childrens health and education)...then American made is not meaningless. It means something to me for sure.

In many cases, American Made means that the product was designed and engineered in America, reliability tested in America, assembled with accepted quality control practices here, and supported after the sale from the same location it was designed at. That means something in regards to a good quality product that will have some long term support.

" Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas"

This statement is true. This is why (as an example) Iphones are produced in China with excellent performance and quality. This adds cost to product no matter where it was built! Imagine what an Iphone would cost if the workers made more than $2/hour!

However in the case of products "made in America" previously discussed on this thread....there is more done than just "populating a circuit board". In well designed and built products the circuit boards are designed for specific performance, application and MTBF (mean time before failure). In the case of plasma circuit boards ...they have to be designed to control current, to control output pulse width modulated waveforms, to work with specific torches to properly time the power up and down ramps, air pressure and flow timing, starting (pilot) current, etc.) Use a different torch and these functions must change. Well....only if you care about cut quality and consumable life!

Many of the low cost plasma units have interchangeable boards, work with a variety of generic torches (mostly copies of old designs), and are not conformally coated, HiPot tested...or CE/CSA approved. Simply not the same. Yes, all plasma cutters cut metal. No, they do not cut with exactly the same quality, and the consumable life varies wildly from design to other designs.

Again though.....if low cost is more important than cut quality, reliability and operating cost...then the low cost welders and plasma systems may be the best option. It is great to have a wide range of choices!

Jim Colt



Populating a circuit board and running it through a soldering machine isn't rocket science anymore. Infant mortality is the predominant cause of failure of electronics and if the manufacturer has a competent Environmental Stress Screening program, it will minimize problems in these areas. People who dismiss products simply because they were made in China are deluding themselves.

[/QUOTE]

Personally, I can not afford to solve US labor force problems in America with my welder purchases. This is a purely emotional issue and does nothing to counter my argument as to the real value of "American made".

If you are going to sell your products here, why don't you become a sponsor?

 

[KubotaOwner]

Just being an American manufacturer certainly does not ensure quality or performance. You have to have the correct procedures and the ability to produce consistent products. ISO9001, CSA, CE, UL and other organizations help you meet standards and be consistent, but internal controls, policies and "Black Belt" quality control people are what makes good consistent quality. That can be done anywhere, but it does take extra effort and it does affect the price of products no matter where they are built / assembled.

I am 100% sure that we could build Hypertherm plasma cutters anywhere in the world, as long as the factories were set up the same, all of the control procedures were the same, and you compensated your employees to the point that they actually enjoy coming to work. Good pay and benefits, profit sharing or an ESOP employee ownership program. Trust me....ownership makes a difference in the quality of the product as well as the productivity of the workforce.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

I am 100% sure that Hypertherm, or any other manufacturer for that matter, WILL build their products elsewhere in the world if they desire to remain competitive. It is a simple matter of cost of labor and export/import controls at the present time. Cost IS a driving consideration, which is why, company after company are moving many of their operations overseas. The ONLY way you can remain competitive with a higher priced product is if the product is clearly, intrinsically better. Unfortunately in many cases, short of definitive, objective, published reliability and/or performance studies, we are left with anecdotal assessments. "Made in America" or "Chinese junk" is NOT an objective study.

 

[BlacknTan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most "mil-spec components" today are manufactured outside the US. You could never afford to buy a mil-spec product as an individual. I worked in the military electronics field my entire career and am somewhat familiar. Everlast, like many other high quality welding equipment suppliers, are ISO9001 certified, which is the INTERNATIONAL quality standard for manufacturing.

Your witticsms are certainly relevant which is why you need to be discriminating about where you buy a product. You make your decision based on things like what standards, if any, a product is manufactured to such as ISO9001.

I did not receive Kool-aid with my Everlast products, I received a well made product with a good warranty that, to date has proven to be reliable at a much lower price than many of the competitors. If you prefer to pay lots more for "American made" products - have at it.

American products are not my only concern .. American jobs are!

It hurts me deeply to see American workers demeaned as their jobs get sent overseas, and they're forced to work as a manager at the local McDonalds. This will definitely hurt the standard of living we have become used to!

 

[jimcolt]

It is not worth arguing with your strong opinions. The biggest gains in our market share have occurred when our competitors started producing off shore.....many are rethinking this, and making costly moves to re-shore some product manufacturing. I suspect that if my company ever manufactured outside of the US the product manufactured would be for the region it was manufactured in. This certainly allows you to build an excellent product with lower logistics / shipping costs, as well as taking advantage of local labor.

On your point that I am "advertising"....I fail to see advertising in my posts. Perhaps you can point this out specifically and I will correct it.

Jim Colt