Exhaust pipe wrap?

Richard · Jul 23, 2004

Dunno how well I can explain this, but the base question is, will exhaust pipe wrap work on a diesel?

Brutus has a turbo on side of engine. The muffler is bolted to the turbo, and the muffler has an integrated 90 degree elbow in it.

Well, the elbow has finally rotted through /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've got some work to do this weekend and do not have the replacement parts in, so I thouight I might try to bandaid the pipe together with that pipe wrap until my parts arrive next week ($300 for muffler/pipe assembly /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif )

Anyone know if a diesel will get warm enough to help that wrap stuff work, or is it a waste of my time to do it for one day's work?

Oh it blew the 90 degree apart AT the elbow, so it's not a straight pipe situation...the pressure of exhause will be pushing the other half of elbow AWAY as it runs/cures

B2400 · Jul 23, 2004

If it's at the outlet of the turbo, it will DEFINITELY get hot enought to cure it. Keeping it stationary enough to work will be the tough one.

Richard · Jul 23, 2004

Well, I got 2 wraps on way home just in case.

Went to look closer and the fact is, I don't have enough room to wrap around anything, so it wont work

Bummer

The good news is, JCB has some in stock (in their Georgia assembly plant) and it's ordered, so I outta have it next week.

theonlybull · Jul 23, 2004

i've been known to use some thin alum, or body metal, cut to fit around the pipe, ( pie shaped peices cut out to go around a corner), some hose clamps/muffler clamps (what ever works) and lots of high temp silicon....... my 79 f-100 last 6 month's that way, including a 6000 km vacation... ( pipe broke the day b4 i left, and didn't have time to properly fix it)

mrcaptainbob · Jul 24, 2004

There's an epoxy muffler repair kit available, too. You place/shape the window screen type material that's in the kit over the hole and butter on the epoxy with the ice-cream sticks they give you. Let it set for a bit and start and let idle. After maybe five or ten minutes idle, then you're good to go. You'll need a rock drill to get it off, though!

Richard · Jul 25, 2004

( over the hole )

I chuckled when I read this.

I'm not suffering from a hole in the muffler or the pipe.

The pipe has a VERY SHORT 90 degree bend in it as it exits the turbo and immediately turns to go straight up and out. It's at this bend where the pipe totally seperated.

Evidently it had been getting thin and perhaps perforated over time and the other day, whammo, it let loose.

The mounting bracket is the ONLY thing holding the pipe on. it's completely seperated from the outlet of the turbo and no real elbow room to try to repair anything.

As on many manifolds, the bolts/connection area is very rusty and rough, so I've been putting PB Blaster on it several times a day to prepare for it's replacement later this week when the new muffler/exhause assembly arrives.

JerryG · Jul 25, 2004

($300 for muffler/pipe assembly)
For that kind of money, I think that I would have taken it off and had a muffler shop fab up one for $50-60.

DiskDoctr · Jul 26, 2004

Richard,

A suggestion for the bolts. Take them off when hot. (Tractor warmed up, but shut if off first /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

PB Blaster is good, will smoke if used on hot surface, but I've never had a problem with it.

I agree with the ealier post- An auto muffler place can easily make an assembly for you- maybe save some $$...

-JC

PS- I can't picture exactly what you describe. Can you post a picture?

Richard · Jul 27, 2004

will try again, they (dealer) faxed me a schematic of the parts and my scanner seems to be having difficulties talking to my pc.

Actually, I get a out of memory error /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif and the scan quits.

I'll try again

MicroPilot · Jul 27, 2004

Try scanning at a lower resolution and/or lower color depth.

Richard · Jul 27, 2004

whoo hoo, I got it to scan.

In the pic, part 1 is obviously the muffler assembly. It is attached DIRECTLY to the output of the turbo with #4 in between.

I tried to draw an arrow at the "corner" of the muffler pipe to illustrate where it broke COMPLETLY through. Again, it's not a hole, it's a rotting of the pipe, so the pipe isn't very strong there.

As the muffler assembly turns north, it pops through the hood where the tall exhaust stack (#9) slips on.

The parts (muffler, bolts, gasket) are all ordered. You will notice a 7.00 pointing to the gasket... yes, that's $7.00 for what is probably a piece of cork /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

None the less, I just bit the bullet. When it comes to maintaining things, I usually try to do them 100% right rather than cut a corner and have to do it again later.

Hope the diagram helps a bit /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DiskDoctr · Jul 29, 2004

Richard,

Thanks for the picture, it helps.

You ordered a muffler? Was it bad, too? That's where you're getting into the $$.

The gasket wouldn't be cork because of engine heat, probably asbestos (?)

If you can get out of the muffler purchase because it looks okay, you may be able to save about $200 by going to a muffler shop and get them to fab something or weld the bottom of the muffler (braize?) if the pipe has broken off it.

Of course, that is only if the muffler is okay.

Yeah, I know it's more work and will be a hassle, especially to drag stuff to a shop, but you stand to save real $$. If the hassle factor is greater than the $$ issue, then go for it. Been on both ends of that stick /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

By the way, you do have the flap on top of your muffler, right? If it isn't on or is damaged, that's a prime cause of the problem you mention.

Also not running engine long enough to get hot and "dry out" the muffler can cause it. Same with cars. That's why the perfect condition "little old lady" car with very low miles has no exhaust- moisture.

Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

Oh! - Make sure you don't hurt threads (#2 in your pic) when reinstalling the bolts. It's easy to cross thread with the weight of the muffler on it. Try putting in your support bolts on the muffler, but don't tighten them until everything is started. Be prepared to replace the bolts if they are rusted...

-JC

Richard · Jul 29, 2004

some nice advice on how to avoid cross threading... (who ME cross thread?? never /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif )

I bit the bullet, perhaps regretfully now (see near thread on wallet being unpacked) lol.

I stick true to my theme of trying to do it "right" when I do something, so I've replaced entire assembly with new stuff. the "silencer" (as they call it) is evidently intact, it's just at that 90 degree bend where it's all rotted through. My guess is, the entire pipe between turbo & inlet is compromised, so I'm not unhappy replacing it.

Now, the repacking of my cylinder... geez /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Richard · Jul 30, 2004

ok, I'm putting my cylinder escapade behind me & have a question on the exhaust.

Now I see the larger picture, just so you know what I found...

Evidently a long time ago, the muffler needed replaced, they torqued a head off a bolt and left the thing on being held on by the 2 remaining bolts. They then WELDED a galvanized waterpipe nipple, something like 2"x4" to the TOP of muffler and that's what the stack pipe connected to.

Fast forward to today, pipe is broken, so needs replaced. The other bolts would also NOT come out (even after DAYS of PB blaster) so I just got done grinding the head off 2 bolts and took all off.

I now have 3 studs sticking out of the exhaust port of turbo. I've been soaking them too with PB blaster.

They are (so far) NOT budging.

I'm using vice grips to TRY to grab them.

Any ideas...

Heat? (directly on exit side of turbo???)
I've "tapped" them to hope to loosen rust some.
I've soaked PB blaster onto BOTH sides of them

I can't use them as "studs" per se, because they will only be FLUSH with the new pipe & not extend through, so they have to come off somehow.

I think if I try to remove entire turbo, I'll have more of same with it's bolts.

ok, I'm ready for ideas. Once I get the 3 out & clean the threads up a bit, I'm ready to put it ALL back together.

MicroPilot · Jul 30, 2004

( ....so I just got done grinding the head off 2 bolts and took all off.

I now have 3 studs sticking out of the exhaust port of turbo. I've been soaking them too with PB blaster.

They are (so far) NOT budging.

I'm using vice grips to TRY to grab them.

Any ideas...

Heat? (directly on exit side of turbo???)
I've "tapped" them to hope to loosen rust some.
I've soaked PB blaster onto BOTH sides of them
)

If they still have threads (which I doubt after using vise grips on them) try putting 2 bolts on them as far down as you can go (against the turbo?) and use these to twist them out.

You could try using Easy Out's

Failing that you'll probably have to drill them out. Use a slow speed drill and keep the bit oiled. If it's not making shavings then the bit is dull and it's not cutting. This may also require re tapping the hole thats left.

Richard · Jul 30, 2004

( If they still have threads (which I doubt after using vise grips on them) try putting 2 bolts on them as far down as you can go (against the turbo?) and use these to twist them out )

NOWWWWWWWW you tell me /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif (smacks self in forehead)

Given you mentioning that, I really DID know that and hit a brain lock I guess /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've been trying to kill the sneaking idea in the back of my head that I may need to remove the turbo.

I guess my vice grip escapade might have just ensured that.

Hmm... would it be possible to weld a cross member to the bolt, sort of making it into a "T" so that the vice grips would have a better "handle" to grab?

I don't have any welding stuff, but a neighbor down the road does...

I really don't want to have to remove the turbo if I can help it /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

maybe if I stuff a sock in the outlet, it will act as a muffler? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

mrcaptainbob · Jul 30, 2004

Welding a nut on the stud is a good idea. Especially if the surrounding metal of that stud is heated, too. That's the time to extract it! While it's still cherry red! Nothing like a smoke wrench!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DiskDoctr · Jul 31, 2004

mrcaptainbob has a good idea.

I have also ground bolts to shape (2 flat sides, 4 flat sides, etc) to get a tool to grip them. I try to use a 6 point socket close in size, grind just enough that I can hammer the socket on.

Yes, I abuse some of my tools... Just have a punch ready to punch through the socket after removal to get the bolt out.

I've also ground slots in bolts for a hefty straight screwdriver, but it sounds like they are too tight for that. It normally helps for small items, or when the nut on the other end keeps turning and you can't get to it- hold bolt with screwdriver and turn nut with open end wrench.

Also can try tapping end of bolt smartly for vibration, but not enough to damage threads. And don't forget to try turning it BOTH WAYS.

Yes, I said both ways... seldom are bolts bottomed out in the threaded hole, the head against whatever is bolted in place stops it in its current position. Sometimes you can tighten a little and it's enough to break the rust, etc.

When heating, try heating the surrounding area, NOT the bolt. (Heat expands, and the last thing you want is a bigger bolt in the same size hole = seized /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif ) This is why I recommended running the motor, as the thermal mass of heating the side of an engine is significant.

Not sure if you should try to cool the bolts after the engine heats everything or not (?) Any thoughts here???

Maybe use some cold water on a rag to cool the bolts, as the engine will stay hot longer due to same thermal mass.

Simple enough to do, may be worth a shot... ?

Just don't break off the bolts... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Wish you the best of luck. Tell us how you make out.

-JC

Richard · Jul 31, 2004

One little tidbit working against me is the fact that the loader arms are right smack dab in my way (of course).

Since I don't have the proper tool to lock them up, I've been working slowly around them and thus far, successfully.

I'm eyeballing the idea of putting loader on a hill so I can still raise it up yet have it resting on the ground.

The bad part is, I don't really have a hill around my power outlets that might let me do that (without suffering the wrath of She Who Must Be Obeyed)

Not sure she'd like the (approx 1,500 lb I was told) loader bucket resting on her day lillies

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Oh, and this message has NOT been checked for grammatical nor spelling errors. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Richard · Jul 31, 2004

Something that I forgot to mention.

I have been spraying PB Blaster on the studs with the exhaust pipe attached, meaning, the broken studs were FLUSH with the outer layer BEFORE I got the bolt heads off (and before the flange came off)

Now that the bolt heads are off, I took the flange off and the bolts are sticking out maybe 1 inch.

I think I'm NOW getting the PB Blaster into the threads, whereas I'm thinking before, with the rust and extra distance it had to go, perhaps it was NOT getting into the thread.

I'll be spraying again shortly to soak it more. Now I know for sure it's getting to the seam where the bolt enters the flange with no obstructions.

My fingers are crossed that it will help.