Fact vs. Fiction. Tractor Myths?

KiotiJohn · Oct 1, 2004

Bob, I didn't call getut's 4" ditch a "little" ditch first, he did. I wish you would quote me correctly and keep it in context, but that's something you quite comfortably don't do often.
getut said: ( But in my case, I have a little 4 inch deep ditch that runs beside my driveway... if I don't carry momentum, I can't get through it in high range even when I'm not towing or carrying anything. )
As for your later post about getut's response, it wasn't cute, is insulting to many Kioti owners, and isn't appropriate in my opinion. Getut's opinion in based on the troubles he is having, yours have always been based on specs, not real use or even a tryout.
Getut said: ( Any intelligent person would most likely say that power is the weakest point for Kioti. That point is un-arguable. I say it is un-arguable because compared to other manufacturers it is fact.)
I have to disagree with you. An intelligent person who has a tractor that works as it should knows that the Kioti CK20 has plenty of power. Yours is not working as it should. Mine is, and has plenty of power to pass your tests. Yes, I assumed a lot, based on the things you've been posting over time. As for the 4" ditch, you don't say how that's measured. I've come across plenty of areas like that that are DEEP enough to stop a lot of front wheels. How are we to know exactly what you mean unless you're more descriptive?
If you're having as much trouble with low range as you say, it's obvious to me that your tractor has a problem. That does not connote to all Kioti's having too little power to weight/ratio.
In the year that I searched for a new tractor I tried a lot of brands and models. The Kioti had as much and often more power than the competitors for the frame sizes. Fact is a funny thing when it's given a subjective spin as you have here, and it's completely arguable. Get your tractor repaired properly. If you're dealer isn't taking care of it, get with the MFG and complain! The CK20 should be doing a much better job than it is, and there is a history of some valve problems, sometimes only requiring that the relief setting be corrected.
John
EDIT: just one more quote: ( I like Kioti, but to make out like it (or ANY OTHER ) manufacturer is perfect is ludicrous.)
It's ludicrous to insinuate that I have EVER "made out" like Kioti is perfect. J

Dargo · Oct 1, 2004

KiotiJohn, if it makes you feel better, I'll tell you my impression of Kioti. As of now I'm intrigued by them. Every other manufacturer's salespeople run them in the ground and proclaim them as "cheap Korean junk", and they have zero resale value.
Well now, about 15 years ago I was basically told the same thing about Kubota. A salesperson told me that the Kubota was for people who wanted a John Deere but couldn't afford one. My, how times have changed; along with my opinion of Kubota.
I like to make my own decisions and draw my own conclusions. (that apparently makes me an arch enemy of a certain political party). Anyway, I secretly kept researching the 'ole orange tractors and watched their market share grow, and grow, and grow. Also, I noticed that more and more commercial and construction and rental places began stocking more Kubota than Deere products. I kept researching their history, personally crawled over and under them and became impressed with their quality. Well, what do you know, my last two tractors have been Kubota. I feel know that anyone who "bashes" Kubota is simply uninformed or has a different agenda.
Now on to Kioti. The local sales people at NH, JD, and Kubota all say that a Kioti is what someone buys when they cannot afford a Kubota JD or NH. Hmmm. Sounds sort of familiar? That is how the big two painted Kubota 15 years ago. In my part of the country, Kubota has surpassed JD, as well as many other parts of the country. What do you know; they turned out to be a wee bit better than the competitors thought.

I'll admit, in my particular area, Kioti has about as much market share as the Tractor King (sold at Rural King) does. However, I've been lurking in the wings and checking out their products. As I said in previous links (which inflamed many people), I do not think that Kioti is quite up to Kubota (their target from what I see), but they are not sitting still. You don't think I won't take a close look and drive a DK65 (right model?) when I go to purchase my next tractor? You bet I will! I'll stick to my formula of look, listen to what current owners say, and check them out for myself; then make my decision.
Since I do trade often, their apparent steep depreciation scale was a major factor in them being marked off of my list of considered tractors a month ago. I keep my tractors like new and, as stated before, only lose about $500 per year on average on my tractors. If Kioti keeps working on product and marketing, they very well seem poised to join the "big" group.

KiotiJohn · Oct 1, 2004

( KiotiJohn, if it makes you feel better, I'll tell you my impression of Kioti. )
Dargo, I didn't feel bad, but your opinion is welcome. I know from reading your previous posts that you make up your own mind as we all should after becoming educated about a product.

I totally agree about the Kubota story, as I, too, was there in those days. I was told, "People who eat with sticks shouldn't make tractors!" I feel Kioti, at this time, is about where Kubota was after they had been here for a number of years, and had continued to make improvements to their tractors.
Kioti is way ahead of what they were originally offering, taking into account customer's suggestions for improvements, and they continue to do so.
Kioti is looking to offering more models, and improved versions of the current models as well. Sure, they have some of the same problems that all brands have from time to time with models not working as well as they should, but they are making great efforts to correct these problems. Sometimes dealers are not as good at taking care of the problem as the MFG would like, and that's the dealer's fault, not the MFG.
Your post was well put, and I can appreciate your viewpoint. John

JayC · Oct 3, 2004

Kioti has come a long way. I think they are really making Kubota sweat (and the other big names, too). The first Kioti that I remember seeing was of a member here about a couple years ago. I think they bought a LK3054. I remember first looking at their site. I don't think the CK20 was even a part of it then. I'm not sure about other models, though. Boy have they changed in those short couple years! Only recently did I discover a tractor in the area that for many years I thought was a Kubota, but is actually a Kioti. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'm not sure of the model number exactly but it is a LK with turf tires, MMM, and cab. It has the blue chassis. Every time I have seen it, it has sat outide. And this was for over 10 years. It still doesn't look too bad. It has been at the same house at the top of a hill. For me, that tractor has become like a landmark over the years when I would go by there. I look forward to what Kioti has in store for the future. The biggest thing I hope for Kioti is that they improve their dealer network. There aren't any dealers nearby (three of them over 60 miles away) and I would love to check out these tractors.

keeney · Oct 4, 2004

RE Power vs Frame Size.

There are reasons other than traction why you generally don't have a large amount of power in a small tractor:

1. Weight. Part of the idea of a small tractor is to keep the weight low. This helps make it useful for things like finish mowing without tire ruts. A more powerful engine weighs more. Yes, lighter engines with high HP can be developed at low weight (think motorcycles and boat outboards), but they tend to be higher RPM. To make a low RPM, high-torque tractor engine just seems to require bulk metal (iron, aluminum, or pot-metal).

2. If weight is no object, size may still be an issue. A more powerful engine is generally larger. Four cylinders takes more room than three, six more than four, etc. It needs a bigger radiater, muffler, air cleaner, etc. You probably want a more powerful hydraulic system, on that, so you need a bigger pump, resevoir, oil cooler,etc.

3. Marketing and pricing. Every manufacturer likes to have a product that hits the prospective customer's sweet spot in terms of price. If a person has more money to spend, well, they should have something with that higher price tag. Meanwhile, they don't want to miss out on the customers with lower budgets, so they need something with lower prices. If they simply sold the same product at two prices, the people with more money would catch on, so they would lose those premium dollars. So, they have to differentiate the products somehow. On a tractor the biggest differentiators are horsepower, weight, and wheelbase. Yes, there is an incremental cost in building a 35hp vs 25hp engine, but its a slight cost difference.

I personally would love to see more of a power war in these types of machines. Even though my little 4100 does what it needs to do, I'd love to have 40 to 50hp in the same weight/size package with 20 GPM@2500 psi hydraulics so I wouldn't have to feel that there was any attachment it could be safely ballasted to lift that it couldn't run.

- Rick

Bob_Skurka · Oct 4, 2004

If I am sitting on my concrete driveway and I ease the rear wheels up again a 2 x 4 sitting on the concrete driveway wide dimension down (just so there is no confusion). The tractor will not pull itself over the 2 x 4 in high range. I don't care how much you defend... that is not right. 

Getut, just as a test, I tried this. Now I was using a TC24, which is slightly lighter than your CK20, but I had the loader on, plus a nearly 500# ballast box, so the overall weight should have been close to yours if you have loaded rear tires and the loader on.

I took a 2x12 (wide side down) and backed over it. No problem. I drove over it forward. No problem. I engaged the mower deck to draw down the power. Backed over it. No problem. Drove over it forward. No problem. I turned down the engine speed to about 1900 rpm, did the same things above again. Again no problems.

I then took a second 2x12 and stacked it on top of the first 2x12 so I effectively had a 4x12 and repeated all the tests, all done no probems forward and reverse with and without the mower deck running even at only 1900rpm.

I think you have a problem with your HST valve.

KiotiJohn · Oct 5, 2004

( I think you have a problem with your HST valve. )
I agree Bob. Yesterday I took my CK20H, in high range, over a 2x6 with a loader full of dirt and a boxblade on the back. Then I drove up a large compost pile with the bucket full, finessing the treadle pedal so as not to lug the engine. No problem. All of this was done between 1800 and 2200 RPM. Getut must certainly have a valve problem somewhere. John

getut · Oct 5, 2004

John,

I have called Kioti and complained. I really think my dealer TRIED to fix the problem but just may not have had the equipment when I brought my tractor back in a month or so back. But try or not.. I paid for this thing and it should be right.

Thanks Bob for your testing, but Johns tests are what intrigue me. So.. for an apples to apples comparison.. and to arm myself with ammo when Kioti gets back to me for the second time., I'd like to get some more information.

John, did you start from a dead stop with the 2x4 "chocking" the wheels or did you just drive over it? Do you have the time or will to find out the limits of the tractor in high range in a way I can duplicate?

An exact duplication of the amount of dirt in the bucket is hard for me to replicate, but the weight of the tractor itself should be very close. I have a 54" bucket with teeth and a 60" RFM and R4 tires (NOT loaded). Starting from a dead stop with the rear wheels touching the objject, how high of an object (edge 90 degrees to the ground/driveway etc) will your tractor climb over with the engine at 2800RPM?

Mine goes over a 2x4 in reverse but not forward unless I get a very small run at it (even 1/4" off the object gives me enough momentum to get over it).

If I have time I will video tape an example of my tractors unwillingness to move and create a DIVX avi of it and post it on my web server. That is really unlikely for the next couple weeks as my wife has been in and out of the hospital with (slightly) pre-term labor (second child due Nov 22). But in the off chance I do succeed, I will post it.

Getut

getut · Oct 5, 2004

It just dawned on me that if the tires are different it could make a drastic difference in the test... especially if you have the softer turf tires. Those tires would almost compress and balloon around the object creating a softer "lifting" effect. An R4 being very hard would hit the object, not deform and be forced to climb over the object at a steeper angle.

Its hard to explain.. maybe I did well enough that you see what I am talking about. Hopefully we have the same tires.

Getut

slowrev · Oct 5, 2004

Getut,
Best wishes to your wife and yourself on the upcoming youngin.
Boy, that will cut into your seat time /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Do they make child seats for tractors ?

Ben