FEL coming loose @ bracket

[psient]

Hi All:

I've a L4400 with the FEL and a clamshell on the bucket. I have used this loader extensively to back-drag grade, pull trees (clamshell), and Push trees over. The FEL is prone to getting loose where the quick detach bracket mounts to the tractor itself. Last time this happened I took a bottle jack and got the weight off of the loader then torqued the bolts to 105-110 ftlbs.

This time I dropped the loader so there was absolutely no weight on the bucket then tried to back out the bolts to make sure the 2 surfaces were mating with no dirt/debris inbetween. I broke one of the bolts off in the tractor.

Has anyone ever had this kind of problem with the FEL?

My 4400 is hydro-static and I keep it well serviced. I assume the bolt was stressed by the slight movement of the loader prior to my trying to back it out. Like I said it broke off. I was using a bolt breaker with a pipe on the end for leverage. I don't quite get why the thing came loose in the first place. Doesn't Kubota design these loaders to take this kind of duty (pushing on trees, back dragging for grade, digging holes using the entire weight of the tractor on the bucket, etc). I figure I can't be the only one who uses their machine this way right? I was hoping someone else could tell me what they've done to avoid this, after having it happen to them.

Thanks in advance,

Jon

 

[ovrszd]

Bummer. This is a first for me. I use the snot outta mine. Actually this is my second Kubota with FEL.

As for the bolt twisting off. I'm guessing that bolt was under tremendous stress at some point and tried to pull the threads. When you tried to remove it the threads were so bound up that the bolt twisted instead. Sounds like you're gonna have to take the bracket off now so you can try to extract the busted bolt and start over. I'd certainly run a thread cleaner or die into the tractor holes before reinstalling. I'd also use some thread lock to try to prevent loosening again. Problem now is you've probably oblonged some holes and/or loosened the threads on most of the bolts.

Update us on your progress. Hopefully someone will chime in here with some personal experience.

 

[ishiboo]

I noticed a bunch of mine were slightly loose, though they probably haven't been tightened in the life of the tractor (4300 hours). The bars that connect the quick attach brackets to the rear axle were how I noticed - had a rattle and traced it there. But then I checked the quick attach brackets and they were loose as well.

I tightened all for now but the loader is off the tractor for the winter. In summer, I'll remove all, parts washer the bolts/etc. and put thread locker on where they attach. One of the threaded areas is shot and won't take the bolt, if I have access to the back (can't remember) I will put a nut on it, otherwise it'll get drilled and tapped for a larger bolt.

You may wish to replace them with new grade 8 bolts from a local hardware store (though of course they're metric).

 

[psient]

Ishiboo:

I tried to take the bracket off as instructed by my dealer. I ended up breaking a bolt. So one out of 8 was lost. When this happened I contacted my dealer and he sent out a mechanic. I know this mechanic to be reliable and knowledgeable. We struggled to get 4 of the remaining 7 off. Of these 7 all but 2 of the bolts were trashed. Of the 7 holes, 2 were completely non-useable (i.e., no threads). We had to use 3 progressively larger end mills chucked into a 1/2 inch milwaukee D handle drill in order to remove the broken bolt. If I didn't have a Bridgeport and so end mills to use, we probably could not have removed the broken bolt. That would have meant hauling my tractor to the shop to get the job done.

Now these were grade 8 bolts. I watch for looseness ever since that last time. I did not notice the FEL moving until today. From now on, I'm going to schedule tightening/checking once a month minimum and every time I use the loader in extreme duty. I don't understand why Kubota has this 'great' reputation. The loader clearly was not meant for the duty it receives on the ranch. 38K . . . what a gyp.

ON Monday he's coming back and we're going to tap an oversize bolt hole to make the 2 bad holes in the tractor body serviceable. I shouldn't have to do this. If there's a chance of a problem, the maintenance schedule should call-out tightening. I don't see this in the manual for the tractor. Maybe it's in the manual for the loader. The tractor has 400 hours on it and it needs this done to it. I call that crappy engineering. I wonder if Case or Massey would've fared better. I probably won't buy another Kubota as they are too light duty. I'm gonna call the company and speak with someone there to find out if this is a problem that recurs. No one has replied with this issue yet so I'm still uninformed by our community here.

 

[whis]

they would brake too, sounds like you are trying to use it like a bulldozer

 

[greenrider1]

I've never run into this issue on any of the Kubotas I've owned, and I've used the loaders hard. The loader is a dealer installed accessory. It could be possible the bolts were never torqued properly from the beginning, causing thread damage when they loosened. Once the threads are damaged, the bolts could have just bound up without actually tightening and creating a clamping force, which would just keep making the problem worse. The only other brand I have much experience with is a JD 4320, and the loader isn't built nearly as strong as Kubota's. The JD seems to have a lot of side to side play in the loader arms. Always has since new. I hope things work out for you.

 

[ovrszd]

Ishiboo:

I tried to take the bracket off as instructed by my dealer. I ended up breaking a bolt. So one out of 8 was lost. When this happened I contacted my dealer and he sent out a mechanic. I know this mechanic to be reliable and knowledgeable. We struggled to get 4 of the remaining 7 off. Of these 7 all but 2 of the bolts were trashed. Of the 7 holes, 2 were completely non-useable (i.e., no threads). We had to use 3 progressively larger end mills chucked into a 1/2 inch milwaukee D handle drill in order to remove the broken bolt. If I didn't have a Bridgeport and so end mills to use, we probably could not have removed the broken bolt. That would have meant hauling my tractor to the shop to get the job done.

Now these were grade 8 bolts. I watch for looseness ever since that last time. I did not notice the FEL moving until today. From now on, I'm going to schedule tightening/checking once a month minimum and every time I use the loader in extreme duty. I don't understand why Kubota has this 'great' reputation. The loader clearly was not meant for the duty it receives on the ranch. 38K . . . what a gyp.

ON Monday he's coming back and we're going to tap an oversize bolt hole to make the 2 bad holes in the tractor body serviceable. I shouldn't have to do this. If there's a chance of a problem, the maintenance schedule should call-out tightening. I don't see this in the manual for the tractor. Maybe it's in the manual for the loader. The tractor has 400 hours on it and it needs this done to it. I call that crappy engineering. I wonder if Case or Massey would've fared better. I probably won't buy another Kubota as they are too light duty. I'm gonna call the company and speak with someone there to find out if this is a problem that recurs. No one has replied with this issue yet so I'm still uninformed by our community here.

Not sure why you didn't add all this info to your first post??? Glad you got it going.....

 

[ENC]

FWIW my L4600 the newer version of the L4400. My loader manual specifically says the bolts can work loose. They should be checked and torqued every 50 hours of use to prevent the exact problems you are having.

 

[s219]

Doesn't Kubota design these loaders to take this kind of duty (pushing on trees, back dragging for grade, digging holes using the entire weight of the tractor on the bucket, etc). I figure I can't be the only one who uses their machine this way right? I was hoping someone else could tell me what they've done to avoid this, after having it happen to them.

I don't think any front loader is meant for digging "using the entire weight of the tractor on the bucket". You're not going to get any sympathy from a manufacturer if you complain about failure due to that usage. I wouldn't push on trees either.

The loader clearly was not meant for the duty it receives on the ranch.

Sounds about right to me based on the digging and pushing you're doing. Wrong type of equipment for these jobs.

I shouldn't have to do this. If there's a chance of a problem, the maintenance schedule should call-out tightening. I don't see this in the manual for the tractor. Maybe it's in the manual for the loader. The tractor has 400 hours on it and it needs this done to it. I call that crappy engineering.

The loader manual calls for re-torquing at the first 50 hours and intervals thereafter.

 

[psient]

I've never run into this issue on any of the Kubotas I've owned, and I've used the loaders hard. The loader is a dealer installed accessory. It could be possible the bolts were never torqued properly from the beginning, causing thread damage when they loosened.

Thanks for the feedback Greenrider1. I agree. This is one of the likely scenarios. I assume the bracket isn't installed without the loader being ordered. There were some other minor issues with the tractor that speak to installation.

However, I don't understand that when I talked with the dealer a year or so ago about this issue I wasn't told a precautionary tale. At that point I could've been on the issue and solved it before the engine mount was deformed. Oh Well. I'll be back in business on Monday.

Once again thanks for the feedback.

Jon

 

[psient]

they would brake too, sounds like you are trying to use it like a bulldozer

Hi Whis:

Yeah probably. The only reason I say this is I bought a used Massey about 20 years ago. It was an asphalt guy's tractor and had seen major duty. It still was able to do all of the grading chores I needed. I should also clarify that, in SoCal on my ranch the trees are orange trees. I purchased the acreage in the mid 80s as a grove and did the grading for my home. I am always expanding my agri activities. For instance, I just put in 40 olive trees. So I am occasionally pulling orange trees with the Kubota. A typical removal will be to dig down around the tree with the bucket, busting the roots as I go. I only do this after the rain so it can't be very often the 44k sees this duty (it never rains here). After the tree base surround is excavated, I will roll the bucket so it is in-line with the loader-frame and start to rock the tree, moving alternatively to whichever side is opposite the one I'm at. Eventually, the tree will fall over. I use the calmshell to pick up the tree and move it to the pile.

This last spring I used the loader to dig down about 3 feet into my garden to turn the soil at the bottom onto the surface. I did this after watching the TV show AG PhD where they were talking about nutrients below the surface. I systematically and progressively made a trench the length of the garden then would start just behind the trench I just made with the next one. Thus I moved slowly backward until the whole thing was turned. The area was about 150 X 35. I don't think the above is serious over extension of the tractor's assumed use as advertised. I don't use it to demolish or bang on concrete/asphalt. I am cognizant of the need for servicing. I grease the loader every 10 hours, change oil and transmission fluid using SUDT. I was only asking if anyone else had this problem.

I'd state that the duty this tractor sees should be right in line with this series and the utility it was intended to perform a la Kubota's advertising. I don't have enough information to decide why things are the way they are. However, our community should be able to help with this issue.

Thanks for chiming in.

 

[psient]

FWIW my L4600 the newer version of the L4400. My loader manual specifically says the bolts can work loose. They should be checked and torqued every 50 hours of use to prevent the exact problems you are having.

What is the torque?

Thanks

 

[psient]

I don't think any front loader is meant for digging "using the entire weight of the tractor on the bucket". You're not going to get any sympathy from a manufacturer if you complain about failure due to that usage. I wouldn't push on trees either.




Sounds about right to me based on the digging and pushing you're doing. Wrong type of equipment for these jobs.




The loader manual calls for re-torquing at the first 50 hours and intervals thereafter.

I see.

Thanks for the feedback S219:

An excavator isn't practical for my needs, not utilitarian enough. Rental is 400 bucks per day.

So what kind of duty is the tractor design anticipating? Just curious as to what you use your tractor for? I see you are in Virginia. What kind of agriculture are you in?

When I checked the user manual I didn't see this but I am sure you are referring to the manual that came with the loader.

 

[ENC]

I am away from home now to get you the specific ft/pd, but I seem to remember it was about as high as my half inch snap-on wrench had adjustment for. I can get the actual number Monday.

 

[ishiboo]

What is the torque?

Thanks

Ooops, guess you didn't follow the instructions!

I'd state that the duty this tractor sees should be right in line with this series and the utility it was intended to perform a la Kubota's advertising. I don't have enough information to decide why things are the way they are. However, our community should be able to help with this issue.

Find any advertising where Kubota suggests mass digging with a FEL.

I think you're somewhat confused about what you bought though. A tractor with a LOADER is designed for loading material. It is not primarily built to dig, plow, etc. or really any ground-engaging duties other than loading. These are jobs for an excavator, backhoe, etc. They do test them to do some of this work and you'll find most of us do some basic digging with no issues, but it seems you are doing a lot of fairly heavy-duty digging.

This is not a limitation of Kubota, look at any tractor-loader combination and compare it to a skid loader of the same lift rating. The arms on the skid loader are twice the size of the tractor, and it's still primarily designed for loading. Then compare the section height/width of the loader arms on your tractor to the section height/width (and also steel strength) of an excavator with about the same lift rating.

What you probably wanted was a TLB. Though I agree an excavator would be by far the fastest way to handle this stuff. I need a tractor first and an excavator second, not one or the other.

 

[k0ua]

It is not just Kubota, all brands need tightening of the loader bolts. Upon delivery of the tractor,(don't trust the dealer to do it) and at least at the 50 hour points. thereafter.. You will find if you follow this schedule at around 150 hours they might not have loosened up any more.. I noticed a lot of movement in my Kioti loader at 50 and 100. but not much at 150 or 200. I also use my loader heavily and not just for scooping up loose materiel. You have to really stay on top of this to keep the bolt holes from being damaged. People that use their loaders to scoop up mulch and feathers, probably don't need to worry. Those of us that pry out rocks do.

 

[psient]

Thanks for the response Ishiboo!

I accede the point about tightening the bolts every 50 hours. I can't remember if I received the loader manual or not. If I did I missed those instructions.

I am not being argumentative but hope you'd share your opinions here as well!

What work do you think is appropriate for a tractor used on a working horse ranch/orange grove/CSA.

Can a Massey or Ford be used in construction for something besides material placement or removal? Are there contractor versions made for all around duty? For instance, would it be anticipated that a tractor used by an asphalt or concrete tractor be used to break-up an ac driveway or a concrete walkway? Would you anticipate that the contractor would use another piece of equipment? Would one forgo a tractor and get a BOBCAT for such tasks?

Would it be just a heavier version of a ranch tractor? Do contractors use their bucket to back-drag when they grade? What about grapple attachments? Are grapple attachments outside of the purview of a tractor's utility (the kind of tractor I have)? the use of a clamshell comes close to a grapple but not as specific in regards to removal.

 

[psient]

I am away from home now to get you the specific ft/pd, but I seem to remember it was about as high as my half inch snap-on wrench had adjustment for. I can get the actual number Monday.

Thanks. Maybe someone else will chime in with the actual loading. Many seem to be expert on this aspect of use and maintenance. That's why I asked our community this question.

Thanks again ENC

 

[psient]

k0ua:

Thanks for the insight. I'm thinking of getting an impact wrench/gun and using it to ensure the bolts remain tightened. Probably wouldn't hurt to do so after every strenuous task.

 

[s219]

I see.

Thanks for the feedback S219:

An excavator isn't practical for my needs, not utilitarian enough. Rental is 400 bucks per day.

So what kind of duty is the tractor design anticipating? Just curious as to what you use your tractor for? I see you are in Virginia. What kind of agriculture are you in?

When I checked the user manual I didn't see this but I am sure you are referring to the manual that came with the loader.

I think the hardest job I do with my front loaders is moving bulk materials -- stone, gravel, fill dirt, and top soil. In those cases, I nose into the pile with the bucket about level with a good amount of throttle, in 4WD and normally low range, and then curl the bucket back when I start to feel resistance. Occasionally, I will scrape off a few inches of topsoil or pop out a rotten stump. To me, that is about as much "pushing" as we should do with a front loader based on what's recommended in the manual and practices discussed here. They are primarily designed for scooping and lifting where the resistance is from weight (i.e., vertical). Front loader arms and mounts are not beefed up for pushing like a dozer, and not even close to handling the digging leverage of a backhoe (just look at backhoe arms, pins, and bolts for comparison).

ishiboo did a good job summarizing things.