Fell of tractor, run over by the mower.

[DMW]

I hate stories like this. Growing up on a farm I knew to many people killed or dismembered by farm equipment. Of the people that I personally knew who died working on the farm none of them were short on brains. They just got in a hurry or were over tired when things caught up with them. We need to slow down and make sure we do things right.

The only fatalities in my area that I can recall all involved children. One was a father giving his kids a bucket ride in a skidsteer. He hit a bump, the 2 year old was flung up and struck his head on the bucket edge....died instantly. Another was a 4 year old who wandered over to tractor powering a grain auger. Reached out and touched the unguarded PTO. Flung him about 20 feet, also died instantly from brain injury. One neighbor was mowing grass on a little Kubota with a MMM while holding his grandson in his lap. His health wasn't good and suffered a mild stroke while driving. Dropped his grandson, who fell under the rear wheel. Luckily the ground was very soft and the turfs spread out the weight of the tractor. Only a few bruises, but could have easily been worse. I cringe every time I see my 70yr old FIL driving his old International while sitting on the fender. Most accidents are avoidable, but people stop recognizing certain actions as unsafe. When my kids were old enough to walk, I replaced all my lawn equipment to models that had safety guards/cut-off switches. You can watch them constantly, but they always seem to get out of sight when you turn for a second.

Dennis

 

[arrow]

I did survive a roll over and I jumped off the machine. A CUT. A full size tractor is something else to jump off of because of the depth you are sitting "in" the tractor. The video states that not one fatality occured with a ROPS vehicle. They must be taking into account only farm statistics because the fellow who died around here some years ago was wearing a seatbelt and fell into a stream bed. He was not a farmer. They surmised he was knocked unconscious and drowned in a shallow pool of water. .There are stories about being thrown from accidents and the such and either being killed or not. I still have trouble with a blanket statement of "always wear a seatbelt" without taking into consideration many of the variables when tractoring. Statistics tell me to wear a seatbelt, but statistics may not apply to my situation or even taken from a similar situation. Righteous indignation doesn't move me either. If I die when tractoring either because I 've worn a seatbelt or not, it was because somewhere along the line, I made a wrong decision or was a victim of circumstance.

 

[Egon]

Had a Small lawn tractor once [ 16 HP. just like my toy now] It had several safety switches that worked at inconvenient times. By the time the tractor was wore out those switches were still like new! hardly used at all!

 

[N80]

I still have trouble with a blanket statement of "always wear a seatbelt" without taking into consideration many of the variables when tractoring. Statistics tell me to wear a seatbelt, but statistics may not apply to my situation or even taken from a similar situation.

Given enough time and enough numbers (a large 'n'), the stats do a pretty good job of taking into account the large majority of variables. This might not apply to tractor accidents since the 'n' isn't big enough. But the stats for seatbelts in cars are simply overwhelming. There are too many cars, too many people, too many miles for the stats to be wrong in this case because they all say the same thing. There is unlikely to be anything about you or anything that you do that is not accounted for in the stats for US accident fatalities.

And yes, you will find amongst those stats rare situations of people being killed because they had their seatbelt on. But they are rare to the point of statistical insignificance. You will also find stats where people survived serious accidents despite not wearing a seatbelt. Those are meaningless at best. The world is full of idiots that tempt fate and survive. Their survival is not a testament to anything except God or luck being on their side. Grandma smoked 8 packs a day and lived to be 100! Some folks are bullet proof. It's pretty safe to assume that you and I are not.

And for every account you can provide of someone dying because of the seatblet, I'll bet you I can counter with an account of someone I knew personally who died in a minor accident in which they would not have even been injured had they been belted in.

Righteous indignation doesn't move me either.

Me either. It really has no role in safety discussions amongst strangers in which, if you deviate from the legal and common sense standards are the only victim of your decisions.

But pointing out to someone that their decisions regarding safety are illegal, stupid, irrational or unsupportable is not the same thing as righteous indignation. Its just calling a spade a spade. And fortunately there is nothing more fundamentally sound in the world of auto safety as proper seatbelt use. There is virtually no rational justification for not doing so. There are plenty of ways to rationalize doing so, but that is simply using what intelligence you have to arrive at utterly ignorant conclusions.

So sure, we should dispense with the preaching. But at the same time don't expect people to support, condone or agree with irrational decision making just because someone thinks they are unique! As the poster says "Remember that you are unique. Just like everybody else."

If I die when tractoring either because I 've worn a seatbelt or not, it was because somewhere along the line, I made a wrong decision or was a victim of circumstance.

Right, but I get that 'victim of circumstance' stuff from my teenagers. Say they are juggling with my wife's china and the dog bumps into them and they drop a plate and then claim loudly that it was an accident! So sure, there are things beyond our control, but there are decisions you make and actions that you take that often qualify as "asking for it."

As far as ROPS and seatbelts. There is probably never going to be the level of overwhelming statistical, anecdotal and common sense evidence that we have with car seatbelts. So no one will ever be able to prove it with numbers. But I personally believe they are just as protective if not more so. The stats suggest it, common sense supports it and plenty of anecdotes in which someone is killed confirm it as well.

Since no laws dictate how we use the safety equipment on our tractors, we're free to injure and kill ourselves however we choose. But rarely do those accidents affect us only. For the unloved orphans with no families, friends, dependents or insurance policies, I say do whatever you want.

 

[arrow]

N80...Most of what you say has merit. Most of the time. I include a "victim of circumstance not because I think as a teenager (although at times it might be an indulgence) but to include those one in a million circumstances that no matter how well planned, you expect to walk back into the house only to be demised by a large branch falling on your head. There are times when I think it is not as advantageous to wear a tractor seat belt nor is it meaningful for me to get into a contest of how many times persons have succumbed wearing a belt as opposed to not. This is not the thrust of my opinion. Blanket statements with anything cover the majority of situations and whether those situations include many variables, none may be applicable to an individual in particular with particular circumstances. All I am saying is any decision by an individual should take into account particular circumstances as far as usage of machinery. I will not brand anyone for using a tractor seatbelt nor do I expect to be branded as callous, non-caring of family, "unique", a teenager or any other part of your argument that certainly takes on a condescending tone because of my choice. Remember nothing is for certain with anything and in the end, you're correct, it is my choice as it is everyone else's. According to statistics, I should be dead given my former profession. I guess I may have made some correct choices.

Lou

 

[N80]

There are times when I think it is not as advantageous to wear a tractor seat belt

Okay, I'm game, what are they?

I will not brand anyone for using a tractor seatbelt

What would you brand someone who uses a seatbelt? Safe? Logical? Practical? Reasonable? Or maybe you'd put 'too' in front of each of those? And if we're too safe, how so? What do those of us who use the seatbelt lose? What is the cost in the circumstance. I totally agree that people can take safety and safety attitudes too far. But with seatbelts I don't see it. If you do, let us know how.

nor do I expect to be branded as callous, non-caring of family, "unique", a teenager or any other part of your argument that certainly takes on a condescending tone because of my choice.

I didn't intend to be condescending. Or maybe there was no way to respond without being condescending. I don't know. But if righteous indignation doesn't move you then I would not have thought a condescending tone would have either. So forgive the condescending tone, I apologize. But as for the rest of the argument, well, there it is, what about it do you refute?

Remember nothing is for certain with anything and in the end

I totally agree. It is true, a part could fall off an airliner and hit me in the head and kill me while I was driving my tractor. But how does that affect simple decisions like wearing a seatbelt?

And that's all I'm really saying here. We make decisions all the time that affect our safety. Some make sense. Some do not. Sometimes our reasons are sound, sometimes not. But if we're going to put our decisions out in the public forum, we might be asked to defend, or at least give a rational explanation for them. And if the depth of that defense is that anything can happen, it is understandable, I think, that plenty of folks would contest that line of thinking.

I guess I may have made some correct choices.

Lou

I wouldn't dare contest that. But in my line of work I deal everyday with people who make horrible choices everyday and who are still here. So that doesn't seem that remarkable to me.

 

[arrow]

Allow me to explain. I will start off by saying "I am not certain of the efficacy of the blanket statement of always wear your seat belt when tractoring". I do not know this, I am questioning it. It may seem as if I'm questioning that the Earth is not flat but round to you or that I am assaulting a Holy Grail here somewhere by my mere questioning. A seat belt in a car is there for a different reason than a seat belt on a tractor. A tractor will fault not so much with an abrupt stoppage of forward progress while traveling at a high speed, but will basically flip or turn over at basically low speed. While on my tractor many years ago, my left front fell into a leaf covered hole while my right rear went over a leaf covered stump. I was backing up at the time. The ground fell away from me on one side and it was rather rocky terrain. As the tractor went over, the rotational force of 3000# going over literally threw me off the tractor and I landed on my feet totally unscathed. If I had been belted in, I am not certain if I would of been so lucky because my body may have been in a position to allow my neck and head to smash into the rocks as a result of the rotational force as I was being whipped around by this poundage or I may have been knocked unconscious by hitting the ROPS itself. The person who drowned while cutting his property may not have died being belted in if whatever his head hit caused him to be unconscious under a piddling amount of water.
I am not saying people should not wear their belts, heck I do when I'm cutting my brother-in laws 55 acre grass field in Kentucky with his 5000 series JD. I pose the question to explore the possibility, even if it is entertained, that at times, it may be more dangerous to be belted in on a small tractor than not depending on a bunch of circumstances that I am certainly not privy to in their totality. I just know of two.
If you feel my questioning blasphemous and you need to resort to your methods to express your graveness that someone even suggest not wearing a belt on a small tractor because those ideas may get someone else hurt, than I can understand your stance.
I am not deterred or bothered by your condescension, I simply do not expect it in this forum that I think of for the most part as being visited by ladies and gentlemen. I also do not expect this coming from a total stranger because a differing idea may be brought forth. Because I do not expect it, that means little that it will or not happen so no apology needed if that was what you were attempting.
Contrary to what you believe of me or what does not strike you as remarkable, I am a very careful guy. This is why I like to explore all the possibilities even if my explorations are not popular. I cannot tell you how many times that attitude has saved my skin. On a small tractor, I am not certain a person should always be belted in because a multitude of variables. That is all I am questioning and I question it because of my current knowledge and experiences. No where am I stating an absolute in either direction.

 

[groundcover]

N80, how bout helping to get seatbelts on school buses :National Coalition For School Bus Safety

It seems insane that in this day and age the best we can do for our kids that have been (hopefully)belted into carseats since they were newborns is the steel bar at tooth level on the seat in front of them.

I have tried to do this at the state level but I looks like it would be more effective at the national level. New Hampshire really stands behind the Live Free or die motto , even when it comes to the kids.

 

[patrick_g]

I always find it fun to try to put out a fire with lots of gasoline!

OK, I will stipulate that there could be specific instances where not having a seatbelt on could sometimes lead to a better outcome.

Now if someone could please explain to me what those situations/circumstances are it would be appreciated.

I suppose if you are psychic you would know when to not wear the seatbelt because you are going to be rendered unconscious and underwater or have the tractor burst into flames while you struggle to release the seatbelt that won't budge.

So are there specific repeatable situations where seatbelts reduce your safety? If so, name some (how about one?) If the answer to my question is, "all those times when you will be knocked unconscious and be underwater or when your tractor bursts into flames and the belt won't release" then I say unless you are reliably psychic that is a nonsense answer.

I think those among us with limited psychic prowess would be safer to wear the seatbelt all the time they are in the seat with the tractor running or moving until or unless someone can point out a particular set of circumstances where the seatbelt makes it more dangerous.

OK, when does wearing a seat belt make you predictably less safe? If we can establish that then those of us who are OVERBOARD for safety will know to release the seat belt for safety in those circumstances (whatever they are.)

OK, name a few. Name one.

Manufacturers are tremendously liability averse. Does any tractor maker recommend not using the seatbelt in any specific situation(s)? If not wearing a seat belt in a certain situation was safer (less liability risk) the manual would say so. A lawsuit against JD because they callously neglected to mention the operations where not having a seatbelt was safer would let someone WIN THE LOTTERY in court.

Oh, and GroundCover... Wouldn't live free AND die fit better when you use freedom to ignore safe practice?

Pat

 

[N80]

I went back and tried to figure out where this conversation went wrong. Here is a big part of the problem:

There are stories about being thrown from accidents and the such and either being killed or not.

This sentence was not clear to me and I thought you were talking about automobiles. I assumed since you mentioned being thrown, you meant being thrown from a car as I did not think we were discussing people being thrown from a tractor per se. You said in your initial post that you jumped from your tractor; you say above that you were thrown clear. So, I thought you were questioning the rationale for wearing car seatbelts. And I would stand by anything I've said so far in regard to car belts, I think questioning that is sheer stupidity. Thus my 'tone'. Rereading your post I realize (correctly, I hope) that you were never talking about car seatbelts at all. So my apologies for that misunderstanding.

As Emily Litella would say: "Never mind."

Emily Litella - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Allow me to explain. I will start off by saying "I am not certain of the efficacy of the blanket statement of always wear your seat belt when tractoring".

Okay then, let's start over.

It may seem as if I'm questioning that the Earth is not flat but round to you or that I am assaulting a Holy Grail here somewhere by my mere questioning. A seat belt in a car is there for a different reason than a seat belt on a tractor.

See explanation of misunderstanding above.

As the tractor went over, the rotational force of 3000# going over literally threw me off the tractor and I landed on my feet totally unscathed.

Maybe that's why you mentioned being thrown from a vehicle in your original post. Jumping and being thrown are very different things in regard to this discussion. Many people assume that they can jump from a tipping tractor and rely on an ability that they don't possess. It seems like you could. Some are successful. But most aren't and many people die trying. And when people start talking about relying on reflexes and athletic ability to jump, I would tend to get 'condescending' again.

Being thrown, safely, from a tractor is a whole other matter. That is purely a matter of chance and I don't think many would factor it in when making decisions about seatbelt use. Some people might. I think it would be irrational to do so.

If I had been belted in, I am not certain if I would of been so lucky because my body may have been in a position to allow my neck and head to smash into the rocks as a result of the rotational force as I was being whipped around by this poundage or I may have been knocked unconscious by hitting the ROPS itself.

I guess that is where things fall apart for me. You say the ground was rocky and you were whipped around. Do you think your odds of bashing your brains out while in the seatbelt where higher than bashing your brains out from being thrown headlong into a rock? I'm not being condescending, I wasn't there, so I'm really interested in your thought on that.

And in anticipation of your answer, if you say yes, the odds in the seatbelt were worse than the odds without it. Why? What do you think the odds were, in general terms, of you landing unharmed on your feet after being whipped off a tractor into a field of rocks? And remember, just because someone wins the lottery doesn't mean that their odds of doing so were ever good.

I pose the question to explore the possibility, even if it is entertained, that at times, it may be more dangerous to be belted in on a small tractor than not depending on a bunch of circumstances that I am certainly not privy to in their totality. I just know of two.

Fair enough. I think to adequately explore the topic you have to think of a question that puts things in a proper perspective. Let's do that by putting the question so that it has some teeth. Under what circumstances would you recommend that your twin brother, with tractor skills and background exactly the same as yours, not wear a seatbelt on tractor properly equipped with a seat belt and ROPS?

If you feel my questioning blasphemous and you need to resort to your methods to express your graveness that someone even suggest not wearing a belt on a small tractor because those ideas may get someone else hurt, than I can understand your stance.

Well that's just it. And that's why I posed the question above where you are making the decision, or suggesting a course, for someone else. It gives it even more teeth if it is someone you care about.

I think too many times the person questioning a pretty well proven safety practice think that other people over react because they are worried about them. That is rarely the case on the internet. You are free to do what you wish. But an opinion in a public forum is read by many people of various levels of understanding regarding safe tractor operation. I suspect there are kids here from time to time. I wish there were more.

On a small tractor, I am not certain a person should always be belted in because a multitude of variables. That is all I am questioning and I question it because of my current knowledge and experiences. No where am I stating an absolute in either direction.

Good, then answer the question above. The practice of wearing your tractor lap belt is a pretty well established and pretty well proven idea. So the burden is on you to present a situation in which that idea is not a good one. And I think you will have a hard time with it. However, you are free to dream up any situation you wish, so you have a lot of leeway.

So let's hear it.