fertilizer

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Paul,
Thanks for your informed response. The only Nitrogen compound I could come up with that had a 40% Nitrogen content was (NH)4OH, in solution used as a fertilizer it is really 29.4%. After this blunder I looked at Simplots web site and they market a 40-0-0 fertilizer as Methylene Urea and also Urea as 46-0-0. To address Doc and T-Bone's (ditto) who is correct? I think what Doc is saying is he can buy a three bag mix one of 40-0-0, one of 0-40-0 and one of 0-0-40 marketed as 40-40-40.
As an impossible example, if I have pure Nitrogen pure Potassium, and pure Phosphorus, is this then 100-100-100? Don't try this at home.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.simplot.com/msds/11005.PDF>NH(4)OH</A>

T-Bone,

I didn't see anything in the links you provided which supports the percentage is based on the total content of the bag. I still believe it is based on the percentage of the element contained in the compound for the nutrient of Nitrogen Phosphorus or Potassium. I bet Paul will come thru with an answer. I certainly don't have your experience nor Pauls credentials.

Al

 

[TBone]

<font color=red>"The numbers, always given in the same order, represent the percentages each of N, P, and K in the bag (by weight)"</font color=red>

I guess it's just me but this is simple as pie.

13-13-13 is:

13% Nitrogen
13% Phosphorus
13% Potassium (commonly known as POTASH)

Stated another way, if you had a 100lb. bag of fertilizer marked 13-13-13 that bag would contain the equivelant of:

13 lbs. of NITROGEN
13 lbs. of PHOSPHORUS
13 lbs. of POTASSIUM

<font color=blue>As an impossible example, if I have pure Nitrogen pure Potassium, and pure Phosphorus, is this then 100-100-100?</font color=blue>

NO, nothing can be 100% of (X) plus 100% of (Y) plus 100% of (Z)

If it did, a 100 lb. bag of 100-100-100 would contain:

100 lbs. of Nitrogen
100 lbs. of Phosphorus
100 lbs. of Potassium

As you said, maybe Paul can explain it. Your local County Agent or Department of Agriculture representative could also explain it to you.

TBone

 

[cowboydoc]

You're right twinkle toes that's exactly how I buy it. We figure out what is needed for the particular parcel of ground and then just add what we need to the mixer and then put it in the hopper. If I was home I could scan you my scale tickets where it says right on there 40/40/40 mix or other variations. If it's bagged I have no idea because I've never bought bagged fertilizer. Maybe there is a difference there. I have only ever bought it bulk. I'll talk to my fertilizer guy on monday and see what he says. He's owned the business for 40 years now so he should know the skinny on all of this.

 

[TBone]

Cowboydoc,

Can you provide me the name and phone number of your fertilizer guy?

TBone

 

[TBone]

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tfi.org/AboutFertilizer/analysis.asp>http://www.tfi.org/AboutFertilizer/analysis.asp</A>

Twinkletoes,

This is the simplest explanation I can find. If you still don't agree, we will agree to disagree. I don't feel too bad though, my son is an Engineer and we don't agree on everything either.

Cowboydoc,

The analysis code on bulk fertilizer is exactly the same as the bagged stuff. If your ticket says 40-40-40 then it is misleading. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I can probably count on one hand the number of things that I am absolutely sure of because I am neither well educated nor extremely bright but this is one of them.

TBone

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

TBone,

<font color=blue>this is simple as pie.</font color=blue> I'm a little slow so please bear with me/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I understand what your saying, but the dilema is based on how the percentage of the nutrient is calculated. Your saying based on the percentage of the nutrient in the whole bag and I'm saying it is based on the percentage of the nutrient in the compound that provides the nutrient.

For example if I buy 34-0-0 fertilizer, I know the compound is Amonimum Nitrate. It is not a case of 34 lbs of Amonimum Nitrate in a 100lb bag.

Obviously I could be wrong, but will let the dust settle a bit before I acknowledge it./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

 

[cowboydoc]

I just called my wife and got one of the old tickets for some fertilizer and it shows 40-40-90. You can call river valley co-op in Durant, Iowa and talk to them. I just called and they said they didn't know what you were talking about everything equaling a 100. They said you could sure have a 100-100-100 mix or anything in between on a bulk mix. I don't even know how all this works. That's why I hire the experts to do figure out what I need. That's what they're there for. So I'm not sure what your figures are for? The figures I gave are what the ratio mixes are for pasture. They do the same thing for my corn and soybeans but nobody asked about fertilizer for corn and soybeans. If you don't have a soil analysis then they recommend either a 40-40-40 or a 40-40-90 for pasture depending on how it's been grazed, type of soil, etc.

 

[cowboydoc]

TBone,
No ruffled feathers I just don't want anyone to be confused if they go to get bulk fertilizer. If they do they will see it like I have shown. Like I said I have no idea what the bagged deal is like. The website you showed has to do with percent fo the total. I think this is where we are getting off base. With bulk you aren't talking about ratio of a total. You are talking about the strength of the particular product. So in the nitrogen component that pellet contains 46 units. If you have the phosphorous it contains 40 units etc. We aren't talking about a total ratio here because we're dealing with each individual product individually not as a whole as they do in bagged fertilizer. That's why you don't see the numbers equaling a 100.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

TBone,

I didn't see this response when I made my last post. I think we were banging on the keyboard at the same time and you won. I read your link and don't see how it contradicts either position. From my view the other things in the bag for the example of Amomimum Nitrate would be the Hydrogen and oxygen not counted as a percentage of the nutrient. (the 66% that is not Nitrogen in Amonimum Nitrate) plus any added filler.

Probably, what is more important for both of us rather than to agree or disagree, is to know what % of what works on the things we grow.
Maybe Paul or someone will jump in and humilate me and I will have to admitt I'm wrong again/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Good discussion, thanks

Al

 

[TBone]

<font color=blue>I'm a little slow so please bear with me</font color=blue>

You think you're slow/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Ok, let's just take some common concentrations of the three nutrients on the fertilizer analysis code - Nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and make our own.

As you said one of the most common sources of nitrogen is ammonium nitrate, which is 34% nitrogen, by weight. I called the local fertilizer mill that mixes the raw ingredients to make blended fertilizer. They said their phosphorus (they call it phosphate) is a 46% concentration. They also told me their potassium (they called it potash) is a 60% concention.

Let's mix 100 lbs. of each of these together and see what we get.

100 lbs. of ammonium nitrate @34% yields 34 lbs. of usable nitrogen
100 lbs. of raw phosphorus @46% yields 46 lbs. of usable phosphorus
100 lbs. of raw potassium @60% yields 60 lbs. of usable potassium

So we end up with 300 lbs. of fertilizer that contains 34 lbs. of usable nitrogen (or 11%), 46 lbs. of usable phosphorus (or 15%), and 60 lbs. of usable potassium (or 20%). What we have is 300 lbs. of 11-15-20 fertilizer.

Every state that I am aware of periodically tests fertilizer to make sure it has the percentages advertised on the bag (same for bulk). It is a protection for the consumer to make sure he is getting what he paid for.

Whew, I am tired of talking about fertilizer.

TBone