Fictitious Scenario

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   / Fictitious Scenario #1  

Clarke

Silver Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
248
Location
South East Pa.
Tractor
PT425
You are mowing on a 20 or so degree slope with your trusty PT. Suddenly the engine stops. The PT starts to roll down the hill. You try to engage the pin brake. Just clicks. Machine rolls down hill and stops. Since this is like towing your machine with the tow valve closed what kind of damage does a PT incur.

sg
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #2  
I have noticed that with the engine off. if a wheel is lifted off the ground, I can turn the wheel by hand, but very slowly.

I suspect that the wheel motors will try and turn but will not get very fast.

In your fictitious situation, I believe the PT will slowly move downhill, You might even be able to turn the steering wheel somewhat.

When the hose burst on my wheel motor, the PT went backard rather quick, The believe that the wheel motors were acting like a pump and forcing all the fluid out the burst hose.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #3  
I don't believe my PT would roll down that hill if the engine were to stall. The reason I think this is because I have run the unit out of gas a few times. The engine stopped, and so did the PT. It didn't coast, roll or move. The engine died and the unit stopped instantly. So, if it were to roll, I would suspect it would be slow enough that the pin brake would engage. The next time I am out at our property that has a large hill on it, I will try to see if it rolls with the engine off. Probably won't be until the fall, though.

If it did start rolling, I would wrestle the steering to turn across the hill, and it would stop. I would not fear a tip over on a 20 degree side hill with my PT at low speed.

As for damage to the pump, I suppose if the unit had enough weight and/or momentum to start or keep it rolling after the engine died, damage could occur to the pump. I know PT says not to tow the unit without releasing the tow port or damage will occur. But I think they are talking about more distance than a foot or two. I think they are talking about hooking it up to your pickup truck and towing it out of a field or out of a mud hole. If the tires gain traction their motion could force fluid back into the tank and cause suction on the pump side. Since the pump isn't turning, it might try to force the engine to turn over, suck fluid past the seals, etc.... Someone else with better knowledge of hydraulics should chime in here.

Now if a hose burst, the unit might run away, but the pump would not be damaged because the pressure would be relieved by the hole in the hose. Again, my guess, not fact.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #4  
I was going to post this type of scenario as an afterthought to the brakes thread: Link

Without brakes there is really no way to stop a PT rolling down a hill in the event of an engine failure (be that an actual failure or running out of gas).

Depending upon the slope, I think the PT without brakes will continue to roll down the hill. If the hydrostatic motors are like a hydrostatic transmission, then under normal circumstances they will not turn unless hydraulic fluid is pumped through them. However this doesn't apply where inertia can overcome the resistance in the motors or transmission. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about comparing the motor and transmission. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

The suggestion for such a situation is to drop your bucket (if attached) or to hit the big red STOP button that will eject a grappling hook out the back (PT Optional Part#T3999-12). /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #5  
I didn't get that option! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

As for dropping the bucket, that works great if you have it on. If you have the mower, it has wheels and would roll, assuming the PT will roll if the engine dies.

I really wish I had it at our property with hills to test. I would take pictures and everything(assuming it stayed in one place and did not roll, of course).
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #6  
DOH!!! I could test it on the ramps to my trailer. Next time I get it out, I will do that and report back.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #7  
Okay this is what happened to me while going down a very steep hill today with my lawn tractor and its hydrostatic transmission. This tractor has a forward/reverse treadle sort of like the PT except that its mounted on one side of the tractor and you use your right foot to control it. With your foot off, the tractor will stop on level ground, on hills it will continue to roll slowly or quickly depending upon physics. For fun, I decided to go down a hill with a wagon full or rocks and heavy dirt (actually, I think it was really old manure cuz that's what a lot of it smelled like) and I tried slowing/stopping the tractor by going gently pressing on the reverse part of the treadle. Instead of slowing or stopping the tractor sped up instead. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

So I decided to try this again the next time down. What I learned was that the tractor sped up because the rear wheels came to a stop and then the tractor slid (or skidded) down the grassy hill instead. I imagine the same thing would have happened if I had tried to jam on the brake. But I would wonder if the same thing would happen to a PT. Would all four wheels lock up like that or would some lock up and others would still have grip? I will have to try this with 80lbs of weight on the back to see if I get better traction that way.

I know its not the same as a PT but I don't have a PT and I think some of the concepts are bound to carry over.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #8  
Some folks worry way too much about scenarios that have only a tiny, tiny chance of ever happening!!!

What if a dog runs away with your shoes??


What if 100' of barbed wire hits you in the mouth??

What if Kerry is elected??

What if lightening splits your PT in two??

What if some jerk makes fun of your 'what if's??

What if your dog gets run over by an airplane??

What if your PT wears out and you have to buy a nice new one rather than using the same old one forever??

What if you run out of 'what if's??

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #9  
MossRoad, careful with that ramp, you dont want to go off it to one side. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

My pt422 rolls real slow when i shut it down but i havent tried to turn it. I guess I thought it wouldn't turn. I'll have to try that out next time.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario
  • Thread Starter
#10  
Really not a what if game. When I was at Tazwell with Terry he said if you run out of fuel on a hill make sure you apply the parking break or the machine will roll. Didn't think to much about it then. We also talked about the tow valve must be open to move the machine or damage will result. I guess I could ask the question this way. How far would a PT have to be towed or rolled to produce damage and what kind of damage would result.

sg
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( What if ?? )</font>
What if you actually learn something from THIS thread??
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #12  
pt4me
Welcome to the forum and the PowerTrac family.
PJ
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #13  
]WHAT IF] you promise not to post your ramblings and negatism for two years.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #14  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( How far would a PT have to be towed or rolled to produce damage and what kind of damage would result.
)</font>

I think it's probably a matter of YMMV (your mileage may vary). The particular problem is that if you push/pull the tractor without opening the tow valve then you are forcing hydraulic fluid through the system. So you are looking at damaging both the pump and the motors, but probably primarily the pump.

Disclaimer: I don't know for sure, I'm just theorizing.

Fourteen: You do have a point with your last point about "What ifs" but then one could also ask why bother carrying a fire extinguisher strapped to the ROPS of your PT? Surely, the possibility of fire is as small as a piece of junk clogging the fuel filter which stalls the engine which sends you on your way down that hill.

Aside: I had a conversation with someone on the weekend related to brakes and tractors. He said that even large tractors have poor brakes and that runaway tractors are not uncommon. Clearly, most of this equipment is only designed for relatively flat land. That's puzzling.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #15  
If the engine is not running you have no stering. you can force the stering valve to turn probably but it would have no effect on the stering cylinders as it takes hydrolic pressure to either extend the shaft or retract it in the cylinder. If you do try this experiment do it at the bottom of the hill in a place that it would only coast a small distance with nothing in the way except what ever you have to stop it.
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #16  
If it ever stops raining I'll try turning off the engine while on my trailer ramps and seeing if the PT rolls. At the most it will roll a foot, so that will probably cause no damage. Hey, it's all in the name of science, right? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I'll be sure to post what I find. They are calling for rain for the next 4-5 days! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #17  
Sooo, let's settle down this thread until some tests are done. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I wish we could all sit down for a meal together face to face so that we could see facial expressions and body language. Sometimes it's very hard to tell how serious someone is when you can't see them. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #18  
"" negatism ""


Per www.onelook.com :

"Sorry, no dictionaries indexed in the selected category contain the word negatism .

Perhaps you meant:
neogamist (found in 4 dictionaries)
nematics (found in 1 dictionary)
niemants (found in 1 dictionary)
nametags (found in 1 dictionary)
naptimes (found in 1 dictionary)"

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #19  
"" face to face so that we could see facial expressions and body language ""

That is what the Instant Faces /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif are for!!!!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Fictitious Scenario #20  
"" What if you actually learn something from THIS thread?? ""

That would be great, although your post failed to teach me anything!!!! Don't be discouraged!! It's only your first post!! Try again, but watch out for negatism!!

Welcome to the forum!!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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