Finally Building my Backhoe

   / Finally Building my Backhoe #131  
My tractor dealer told me that if I put three point BH on my tractor the warranty will not cover broken top link. The issue is that the top link is not designed for the forces the BH can generate and it could be ripped off the tractor. Sub-frame eliminates this weak point.
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe #132  
mjncad said:
It's not so much the machine the hardlines come off; but what pressure they are rated for. If you can get info from the manufacturer, that would save you a bunch of guessing. If you intend to reuse hardlines, you will have to make sure they are clean, clean, clean inside and out before you braze on the ends assuming you are using that method. How big in diameter are these hardlines you intend to reuse? Just guessing mind you; but I would be surprised if you needed anything bigger than 3/8" on the supply side, and maybe 1/2" to 5/8" on the return to tank. I'm basing that guess on the sizes found on my JD 4200.

It takes a bit of hunting at the Parker web site; but download Catalog 4300 as it has a wealth of information on fittings and how to properly braze hardline end fittings or use crimp on fittings, which takes special equipment. I'd email you the catalog; but it's way too big for that.

As for the pump, again the pump's output in pressure and volume, not the machine that it came off of will determine whether it can power your backhoe. Do you have room for the pump and a separate hydraulic tank?
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sandman2234 was right when he commented early on in the newcomers forum that you people should prove to be a wealth of information. He has been spot on!!

The mower/conditioner system is single acting and used only to raise and lower the header and the reel. I don't expect much for volume or pressure from that system. Those lines look to be about 5/16". I'd have to remove one to make sure. The lines on the bale loader are larger and are likely to be the 3/8" you think would be the maximum I should need. I could use those and still save on space, even if I decrease the diameter to 5/16" or even 1/4" when I go to the flex line.

Looking at the pump on the loader, I note that the speed it runs at was slowed down using sprocket and chain drive. The PTO speed would have been 540 rpm max and I'm guessing the reduction could have been to 360 rpm or so. I'll count the teeth on the sprockets to make sure. The pump itself may have numbers and manufacturers ID that I can follow up to get specs. What is likely to happen when I run it faster than it did on the loader?

As for room for pump and tank, I'll do what I have to, to fit it all on. Since the tractor has no hydraulics at present, I will use the drive pulley that used to run the mower deck and go from there. I'll not be using the tractor for anything but to power the backhoe so anything I hang on it I'll hang it stay there.
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe
  • Thread Starter
#133  
NormL, if you have a PTO pump, hang on to it. A PTO pump is worth a bit more than the smaller pump you'd need considering the RPM's you can run with your garden tractor. Does the moco have a pump on it? Most pumps are rated by cubic inches per revolution. For example this pump from Surplus Center is a 0.49 cu. in. pump. If you run it 1:1 with your garden tractor engine at 3,000 rpm you get 1470 cu. in./minute or 6.36 GPM. (231 cu. in./Gallon) To get the same flow from a 540 RPM PTO pump you need a 2.7 cu. in. pump (or gearing to speed it up).

As far as single acting vs. double acting, a pump is always single acting (it always pumps fluid in one direction). It's the valves and cylinders that can be double acting.
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe #134  
Iplayfarmer said:
NormL, if you have a PTO pump, hang on to it. A PTO pump is worth a bit more than the smaller pump you'd need considering the RPM's you can run with your garden tractor. Does the moco have a pump on it? Most pumps are rated by cubic inches per revolution. For example this pump from Surplus Center is a 0.49 cu. in. pump. If you run it 1:1 with your garden tractor engine at 3,000 rpm you get 1470 cu. in./minute or 6.36 GPM. (231 cu. in./Gallon) To get the same flow from a 540 RPM PTO pump you need a 2.7 cu. in. pump (or gearing to speed it up).

As far as single acting vs. double acting, a pump is always single acting (it always pumps fluid in one direction). It's the valves and cylinders that can be double acting.
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Wow!! The stuff I'm learning here! Yes, the moco has a pump with quite a large pulley on it. It's the kind with the reservoir mounted right on it. Don't know the manufacturer yet; it's still on the machine. The moco is a Case 950 and that probably means it will be the same pump as many other implements they make have.

I was "picking the brains" of a machinist friend in the coffee shop this morning and what he told me about single and double acting jives with what you wrote so that settles that issue for me. Incidentally, would the power steering pump from an automobile serve as a suitable hydraulic pump for a garden tractor? I would like to convert the snowblower and roto tiller on my other tractor to hydraulic lift and lower. I had thought to use the pump from the moco for that but if it should prove to be good for the BH then that's where it will go instead.

I lifted the bale loader out of the grass and mud this morning. Lots of useful looking gear under the decks. Cylinders, reservoir and filter, a cylinder that looks like it will serve to swing the boom, numerous valves to operate the ups and downs of loading platforms and hardline going all over the underside of the machine. I'm going to have a heyday salvaging the items I can use.
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe
  • Thread Starter
#135  
NormL said:
Wow!! The stuff I'm learning here! Yes, the moco has a pump with quite a large pulley on it. It's the kind with the reservoir mounted right on it. Don't know the manufacturer yet; it's still on the machine. The moco is a Case 950 and that probably means it will be the same pump as many other implements they make have.

I was "picking the brains" of a machinist friend in the coffee shop this morning and what he told me about single and double acting jives with what you wrote so that settles that issue for me. Incidentally, would the power steering pump from an automobile serve as a suitable hydraulic pump for a garden tractor? I would like to convert the snowblower and roto tiller on my other tractor to hydraulic lift and lower. I had thought to use the pump from the moco for that but if it should prove to be good for the BH then that's where it will go instead.
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I've seen more than a few old garden tractors with power steering pumps added for hydraulics. I don't think they'll put out enough flow for a backhoe, but for lifting snowblowers and stuff they're great.

I lifted the bale loader out of the grass and mud this morning. Lots of useful looking gear under the decks. Cylinders, reservoir and filter, a cylinder that looks like it will serve to swing the boom, numerous valves to operate the ups and downs of loading platforms and hardline going all over the underside of the machine. I'm going to have a heyday salvaging the items I can use.
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Goldmine!! You may have everything you need already, including the beams. Get us picks if you can.
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe #136  
Iplayfarmer said:
Goldmine!! You may have everything you need already, including the beams. Get us picks if you can.
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Not sure I'll harvest beams from the loader but lots of other bits. I took some photos and sat down at this laptop to transfer them..... NO CARD READER ON THIS THING!!!! :shocked: Oh well, guess I'll have to scoot over to the wife's computer and save them on a stick and then come back to this one. Ticks me off and this is a newer machine too! Speaking of ticks, I'll have to get my wife to help me check for ticks because I found one crawling on my face while I was working out back. Hate them critters!!:mad:
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe #137  
Single acting or double acting refers to how the cylinders work. Single acting cylinders are under pressure on one side of the piston to extend the rod. Gravity or other mechanical aids (e.g. springs) are used to retract the piston once pressure and flow are removed allowing the fluid to return to the tank. In this case fluid flows in both directions in the line depending on how a valve routes it. Think of a dump truck's hydraulic cylinder to lift the bed.

Double acting cylinders can be under pressure on either side of the piston. When one side is energized, the other side is de-energized allowing fluid to return to the tank, and vice-versa. Double acting cylinders are commonly used on backhoes, loaders and Top-n-Tilt systems for the three-point-hitch. Double acting cylinders are used on loaders, backhoes, etc for efficiency as gravity assist takes longer on a single acting cylinder, or won't work due to the cylinder's orientation.

Regardless of cylinder action, it has to be rated for the pressure, flow and load of the application it's to be used on.

Pictures would be of immense help too!
 
   / Finally Building my Backhoe #138  
mjncad said:
Single acting or double acting refers to how the cylinders work. Single acting cylinders are under pressure on one side of the piston to extend the rod. Gravity or other mechanical aids (e.g. springs) are used to retract the piston once pressure and flow are removed allowing the fluid to return to the tank. In this case fluid flows in both directions in the line depending on how a valve routes it. Think of a dump truck's hydraulic cylinder to lift the bed.

Double acting cylinders can be under pressure on either side of the piston. When one side is energized, the other side is de-energized allowing fluid to return to the tank, and vice-versa. Double acting cylinders are commonly used on backhoes, loaders and Top-n-Tilt systems for the three-point-hitch. Double acting cylinders are used on loaders, backhoes, etc for efficiency as gravity assist takes longer on a single acting cylinder, or won't work due to the cylinder's orientation.

Regardless of cylinder action, it has to be rated for the pressure, flow and load of the application it's to be used on.

Pictures would be of immense help too!
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I guess where I got the idea that some pumps were for single acting and others were for double was the system on the moco. Those cylinders are all singles. On the loader, I spotted at least one single, while the rest are doubles. The single can be used as a double if the vent is plugged and a hose attached. The rest are set up as doubles. I think I've got it now, thanks.

As for pictures, I need to get a reader for this laptop. Once I have that I need to learn how to post the pix. So much for this old goat to learn - so few functioning brain cells!!:eek:
 
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