Fire Plugs

[Wayne County Hose]

Nearest one to me is 21 miles. The fire company pumped from my pond when my house was on fire. I told them when I bought the house that anytime they needed water, just back the tanker up and fill 'er up.

 

[atgreene]

The fire ponds are problematic. I've been on the local FD for 20 years, 9 as chief, and the last 6 as a Deputy Chief. I also have been a full-time FF for 15 years.

Ponds tend to silt-in, are hard to reach in deep snow and during mud season you cannot get close enough. We have had many a pump need a rebuild after sucking up silt and dirt. One large fire in a neighboring town I drafted from a fire pond and within a 1/2 hour the screens on the suction were plugged with frogs and water weeds. We no longer allow ponds, underground cisterns only now. Expensive, but clean and easy to hook to.

We had a major fire 3 weeks ago, we could see the lake but were unable to get anywhere near it due to snowbanks. Trucked water from a hydrant 3 miles away and 6 miles away at 3 degrees it didn't take long to build a skating rink.

I get people telling me all the time that we can use their pond and I have to explain to them that unless you can drive a 40,000 lb truck to within 20' of it and not have to lift more than 20' high that it won't work.

 

[scott_vt]

The fire ponds are problematic. I've been on the local FD for 20 years, 9 as chief, and the last 6 as a Deputy Chief. I also have been a full-time FF for 15 years.

Ponds tend to silt-in, are hard to reach in deep snow and during mud season you cannot get close enough. We have had many a pump need a rebuild after sucking up silt and dirt. One large fire in a neighboring town I drafted from a fire pond and within a 1/2 hour the screens on the suction were plugged with frogs and water weeds. We no longer allow ponds, underground cisterns only now. Expensive, but clean and easy to hook to.

We had a major fire 3 weeks ago, we could see the lake but were unable to get anywhere near it due to snowbanks. Trucked water from a hydrant 3 miles away and 6 miles away at 3 degrees it didn't take long to build a skating rink.

I get people telling me all the time that we can use their pond and I have to explain to them that unless you can drive a 40,000 lb truck to within 20' of it and not have to lift more than 20' high that it won't work.

Mornin atgreene,
I dont totally disagree on all you have stated but heres my take on rural water supply.

Im not sure how qualified I am but I have been a volunteer for 25 years, 6 as a company line officer, 2 as captain and the past 9 years as a fire a commissioner.

Dry hydrants need to be back flushed at least twice a year. This removes silt and leaves away from the pickup ! You also need to occassionally drill using these water sources ! Ponds or lakes that are going to be used for rural water supply have to be located close enough to roads that obtaining a prime is not next to impossible. This means as you allready astutely stated in your post that excessive lift is not going to work well in an emergency situation ! Also the dry plug needs to be close to the roadway and also cleared of snow and ice durring the winter months. We have even gone so far to install concrete barricades on either side so the dry plug will not get damaged ! Not everyone is so fortunate as to have live hydrants in front of their home, but that shouldnt preclude adequate fire protection IMO !

 

[atgreene]

I agree, but most small frog ponds and the like quickly fill with weeds, leaves and muck. When flowing high volume the debris in the water quickly makes it's way to the screen. Ponds are usually good for an initial water supply, but we quickly find a back-up from a "clean" dependable water supply.

The reason we have gone to cisterns is so developers can't dig a hole and throw a pipe in it, only to turn it over to the taxpayers for constant maintenenace.

As far as flushing, yup it's a must.

BTW, frogs and fish in the intake really stink after a week or two.

We had a fire a few years ago and when the first due crew went to extinguish it they had a hard time with the nozzle. They swapped nozzles and had no issues. Once they were picking up they tore the nozzle apart and found a small fish! Not sure how it got past all the strainers, but somehow it got sucked up somewhere, and man was it nasty!

 

[RobertN]

Mornin DreaminGreen,
Well I sure hope they count, because if they dont all of rural America is in big trouble !

We started installing dry hydrants in our local ponds 20 years ago to save time over cutting the ice in the winter months, they are a big help along with the 3000 gallons we carry in our tanker !

I always felt that if you cant get a residential house fire out with the first 1000 gallons it was going to be a total loss, I still feel that way today !

Hey Scott,
Be careful what you order... If I got on the radio and odered a Tanker, Camino Dispatch would reply back with how many aircraft are responding

What do you guys call aircraft back there? Do you have many aircraft back there? We have two bases within 1/2 hour flight time of our Station; one in Grass Valley and another at Columbia.

We order up Tenders out here. Our Station has a GMC Topkick with a 2800 tank. We have a portable tank on it, but it has never been used. don't see much of that out here. I have never seen a Tender or Engine do a water dump.

There are five 2500+ gallon tenders within 10-15 miles of us.

 

[RobertN]

I get people telling me all the time that we can use their pond and I have to explain to them that unless you can drive a 40,000 lb truck to within 20' of it and not have to lift more than 20' high that it won't work.

Do you guys carry porta-pumps?

We have a lot of Floata-pumps in the district. For newer pumps, we have been getting something more like a 1.5" trash pump.

With either, you can pump from a swimming pool, pond etc, without getting close to it. It will not, however, flow water like drafting with a 1250gpm midship pump...

 

[atgreene]

We've moved away from portable pumps except for small ones such as for a woods fire (75+- gpm).

We can haul water from long distance quicker and more efficiently than to tie-up manpower with portable pump operations (when they run) .

We have a 3300, 3700 & 2500 gallon Tanker on the first alarm, as well as 3 engines with 2300 on them. Gives us a good knock-down punch even if we have to truck it from 5 or 6 miles. With mutual aid on a second alarm response there's another 3000, 2500 & 3500 coming. I've run a few incidents where we've had 25000 gallons on wheels running a loop from multiple fill sites.

The downfall is that multiple fill sites have to be established in a hurry, that and my hometown is all hills, so every fire always seems to be on top of a mtn somewhere .

Kinda my thing, if I can't be inside with a line knocking down some fire, leave me with the water supply, we'll flood the IC with more H2O than he knows what to do with.

As for tankers (with wings ) there are none. Any rain showers from above are coming from the Huey variety, and with only 3-4 choppers covering the entire state we're pretty much on our own.

Sometimes it seems like our only option is a 100' platform and a big stream of water .

On edit: Friend of mine is deep into fire/ems in Northern CA and always laughs at me when I talk of tankers, at least until he saw our operation.

 

[George2615]

A town water line was run down my street last year. Hydrants were installed roughly every 600'. I have a good well so I didn't hook up but I did have a shutoff valve installed for future hookup if needed. I'm guessing the water is pumped to maintain a 60-70lb pressure to each house.

 

[RobertN]

We can haul water from long distance quicker and more efficiently than to tie-up manpower with portable pump operations (when they run) .

We have a 3300, 3700 & 2500 gallon Tanker on the first alarm, as well as 3 engines with 2300 on them.
On edit: Friend of mine is deep into fire/ems in Northern CA and always laughs at me when I talk of tankers, at least until he saw our operation.

Our reserve/volunteer engine is 500gal. Our first out, staffed engine is 800 gallon. In my limited expierience, I have never seen an engine with 2300. Cool!

We use porta pumps mostly for wildfire. But, they can be an auxillary source while establishing a shuttle.

I've been on the Tender when we had four or five shuttling. It is impressive when you have that much water being moved.

Do you guys use portable tanks and draft from them? We have one on our Tender, but never use it.

 

[atgreene]

Just to be clear, we have 3 engines, 1000, 1000 & 300, total of 2300 gallons on 3 engines.

One tanker has a 750 pump, the new one that will be here in 3 weeks to replace the 3700 gallon tanker will have a 1250 pump with 3300 gallons of water.

We found that we just didn't have the personnel for portable pumps. trucking from a larger water source works out better for us.

We have dump tanks on 2 tankers and 1 engine, and all the mutual aid tankers have them as well, smallest is 2400 gallons, most are 3500. Our two front line engines have gated side and front suctions so we set 2 dump tanks and draft from them as water allows, shutting off the dump tank that drops too low. Works great.

We've really worked to standardize our fleet and make it user friendly as well as a 1 person operation. The front suction on one engine is even preconnected to a 6' piece of 6" hard suction with a low-flow strainer so 1 person can draft alone. And with top-mount pumps, 1 person can gun a fire alone if needed until help arrives.

It always is amazing when I talk to my buddy in CA about their system and how little water they run with. For a dry state it seems like it's a lot to ask of some of those departments. We are a tiny town (1300), but we have a decent fleet due to long term planning and careful decision making.