Fire Plugs

[RobertN]

Just to be clear, we have 3 engines, 1000, 1000 & 300, total of 2300 gallons on 3 engines.

One tanker has a 750 pump, the new one that will be here in 3 weeks to replace the 3700 gallon tanker will have a 1250 pump with 3300 gallons of water.

We found that we just didn't have the personnel for portable pumps. trucking from a larger water source works out better for us.

We have dump tanks on 2 tankers and 1 engine, and all the mutual aid tankers have them as well, smallest is 2400 gallons, most are 3500. Our two front line engines have gated side and front suctions so we set 2 dump tanks and draft from them as water allows, shutting off the dump tank that drops too low. Works great.

We've really worked to standardize our fleet and make it user friendly as well as a 1 person operation. The front suction on one engine is even preconnected to a 6' piece of 6" hard suction with a low-flow strainer so 1 person can draft alone. And with top-mount pumps, 1 person can gun a fire alone if needed until help arrives.

It always is amazing when I talk to my buddy in CA about their system and how little water they run with. For a dry state it seems like it's a lot to ask of some of those departments. We are a tiny town (1300), but we have a decent fleet due to long term planning and careful decision making.

Within our district, we have a standardized first out fleet. It took a while to do after consolidation(Our district consolidated from 6 different smaller, some one house, districts).It is much much nicer to have the same equipment, in the same compartments etc at all the stations. Our volunteer fleet is a mix of engines though.

Re: portapumps - we only use them as a last measure. We usually will have a shuttle going.

Our volunteer engine(the one I operate on mostly) is a 1250gpm 2-stage pump. Our first outs have single stage 125ogpm pumps. The Tender at our station is a pto 750gpm pump.

Our tenser has the dump tank, and dump shoot. It just isn't isn't done around here. Most folks in our district have only drafted in training and during pump tests. I don't know why; I'll have to ask...

I think part of the reason we have 500-800 gallon engines, is for wildland fires we do a lot of off roading. Makes for a smaller rig, that is more agile and lighter. Most neighboring districts are the same. But, we do have fair tender coverage.

Curiously, does your district use midship pumps on engines, or front mount? All of ours are midship.

It is interesting how SOP's differ, and techniques vary depending on location, weather etc. Always cool to learn about other techniques too.

 

[atgreene]

All of ours are mid-ship with front-mount suctions. There was a spell where front-mounts were popular around here but they tend to freeze-up easy in cold weather and are prone to the operator having to climb over and around live charged lines. Never cared to run one myself, topmount has always been my preference. Operator can see all sides, run the deck gun and is out of traffic/hose reach.

It's hard to build a fire truck the way we want and still make them freeze-proof. Everything here gets heat pans under the pumps, auxilary bus style heaters in the pump panel, auto drains as well as carry propane torches and salamander kerosene heaters etc.....

When hydrants and intake freeze while your pumping 1000 gpm it's cold. We put the heaters onto pump panels and hydrants to keep stuff working.

On edit (sorry, had a ems run) My buddy is in Cazadero, near Jenner? are anywhere near there?

Do you have municiple hydrants there or strictly draft operations?

 

[the_sandman_454]

Nearest fireplug is in the next township to the east, so at least a couple of miles. I do have a 60x40'x maybe 15' average depth pond. I know it's not a preferred source, but except in periods of extreme rainy weather, they should be able to get an engine to it if they really wanted to.

 

[DavidVT]

A 'tanker' back here is our rolling water supply. In these rural parts, it is the back bone of fire fighting.

While Vermont has been helping the departments with funds to install 'dry' hydrants, there is likely no department outside of a major city that does not have the all important 'tanker'.

My small volunteer department has water aboard the engine, the tanker and even our rescue truck. All three have pumps also.

I agree with Scott, if our first response on board water does not knock a house fire down, it is likely a smoking hole despite all the hard work to try and save it. Watching a group of mutual aid tankers (vehicle) trying to keep up with hungry engines is something to observe for those used to presurized city hydrants. Thankfully our call volume is minimal.

And yes, these dry hydrants are great but they do need to be flushed. We had the school of fish problem some time ago.. The town politics to keep the hydrants plowed is another issue. Even with them not being perfect, it beats cutting a hole in a frozen pond to try and draft...

When I think of an air tanker here, the thought of frozen blue chunks from commercial planes comes to mind.

I respect the heck out of you folks who do the massive brush fires we read about far too often. I would love to see the action and logistics of such on operation. Here we might have 8 mutual aid departments come together once every few years but that might be for one night, nowhere near what you guys do over and over again... Kudos to you all and your flying tankers!

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

A town water line was run down my street last year. Hydrants were installed roughly every 600'. I have a good well so I didn't hook up but I did have a shutoff valve installed for future hookup if needed. I'm guessing the water is pumped to maintain a 60-70lb pressure to each house.

Contact your insurance carrier you should see a drop, ever so slight, now that you have a fire hydrant nearby. Insurance companies usually will give you credit if the fire hydrant is with 1000' of your home. The insurance rating organization ISO, many insurance companies use the information of the FD to rate the fire policy. ISO rates the FD in several areas from water supply, to equipment to manpower. The rating is 1-10, if you are within 5 miles of a FD you get a 9, if not, a 10. Most communities FD with fire hydrants will be 2-6, most without are 9 or 10. Having paid firefighters is not always an automatic rate reduction. I was in a vollie FD and our ISO rate was 2. About 40% of the ISO rating is based on water supply. They look at the 3rd largest non-sprinklered building in town and calculate the required water to fight a fire at that building. Based on how good your water supply dictates your rating. The FD I was in was a 6, the town spend many millions $$ on a new water supply and we went down to a 2! The town is a mile sq., has 3 fire houses and 85 firefighters with 3 engines a tower and heavy rescue.

ISO will give credit for a dry hydrant as long as it is within 10' of a hard surface road and the dry hydrant meets NFPA 1142. Here is ISO web site if u want to know more ISO's Public Protection Classification (PPC) Program

 

[RobertN]

All of ours are mid-ship with front-mount suctions. Never cared to run one myself, topmount has always been my preference. Operator can see all sides, run the deck gun and is out of traffic/hose reach.

All of our engines are midship; one of our Tenders is midship. Our newer 1st out engines all have aux pumps for pump and roll wildland ops. Our 2nd outs mostly have midship main pumps with pto secondary pumps for pump and roll ops. Everything around here, and boardering districts, has the pump panel on the drivers side. There is on top panel engine in a neighboring district.

It's hard to build a fire truck the way we want and still

make them freeze-proof. Everything here gets heat pans under the pumps, auxilary bus style heaters in the pump panel, auto drains as well as carry propane torches and salamander kerosene heaters etc.....

Were on the west slope of the Sierra, east of Sacramento. We're primarily foothills. Except at the far end of our district, heading towards Lake Tahoe, we do not get that cold of temps. In the winter, everything is kept on block heaters, but nothing on the pumps.

When hydrants and intake freeze while your pumping 1000 gpm it's cold. We put the heaters onto pump panels and hydrants to keep stuff working.

I've only seen that in pictures. The whole engine or ladder is covered in ice, snow on the ground. We have had fires on our east side where the engine could not reach do to snow. Those are a long ways hand jacking hose to get water to the scene.

On edit (sorry, had a ems run) My buddy is in Cazadero, near Jenner? are anywhere near there?

Jenner is about 2- 2.5 hours north west of here. Pass through there when we go to the north coast.

Do you have municiple hydrants there or strictly draft operations?

We have a mix. In town, to the outskirts, we have hydrants. Past that, it is hit and miss. A lot of El Dorado county is rural, and east of Placerville gets to be mixed conifer forest.

Interesting, my Uncle is on the board of a rural FD in Oregon, just south of Portland. All their apparatus are front pumps. They won't even consider a mid-ship. Seems to be a historical legacy from what I can gather. I noticed other engines up there like that too.

 

[kenmac]

Depending on the insurance company, If you have a all volunteer F.D. they won't insure you. My sister called around & had this problem even though, she has a hydrant within 500 ft of her home. My hadrant is within 100 ft & the F.D. is 2 miles away with a mix of paid firemen/ medics & volunteers

 

[Bird]

Ken, you're right, of course. I know when I bought the 10 acres 60 miles south of Dallas, way out in the country, with a mobile home on it, 20 miles from the nearest paid fire department, I went to several insurance agents before I found one that would insure the place at all.

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Depending on the insurance company, If you have a all volunteer F.D. they won't insure you. My sister called around & had this problem even though, she has a hydrant within 500 ft of her home. My hadrant is within 100 ft & the F.D. is 2 miles away with a mix of paid firemen/ medics & volunteers

Ken,

It really depends on where you are located. In NJ/NY most FD are volunteer. As I said the volunteer department I was in was an ISO 2, many paid departments do not have this rating. The town was only a 1 mile square but has a population of 30K. If insurance companies used the same rating system in our area they would not write many policies. Given NJ has more people per sq. ft. then any other state they would loose a lot of customers.

 

[kenmac]

Ken,

It really depends on where you are located. In NJ/NY most FD are volunteer. As I said the volunteer department I was in was an ISO 2, many paid departments do not have this rating. The town was only a 1 mile square but has a population of 30K. If insurance companies used the same rating system in our area they would not write many policies. Given NJ has more people per sq. ft. then any other state they would loose a lot of customers.

I wonder , would ABC insurance co. insure a home in one state that has a volunteer F.D. but, wouldn't insure a home in another state with a volunteer F.D. ?? I know that laws are different in all states which, may not allow insurance companies to say they won't insure because of vol. F.D.. But, my question relates to the same insurance company having different operating policies just because it's another state. My inlaws live in an area (same state as me) with all vol. F.D. & have homeowners insurance but, they don't have the same co. that I have.

 

[tallyho8]

I wonder , would ABC insurance co. insure a home in one state that has a volunteer F.D. but, wouldn't insure a home in another state with a volunteer F.D. ?? I know that laws are different in all states which, may not allow insurance companies to say they won't insure because of vol. F.D.. But, my question relates to the same insurance company having different operating policies just because it's another state. My inlaws live in an area (same state as me) with all vol. F.D. & have homeowners insurance but, they don't have the same co. that I have.

YES, insurance companies definitely have different policies in different states. As an example, NO insurance company will offer wind and hail coverage on their homeowners policy in South Louisiana since Katrina even though they offer it in other states with Florida possibly being an exception.

 

[ultrarunner]

My neighbor put in a pond at his country place outside of Georgetown in the Sierra Foothills.

Several times his pond has been sucked dry fighting fires... never a fire on or near his property.

He said it is quite a sight to see the helicopters hoover overhead getting water and on occasion, a pumper truck has been set-up on site to draw from the pond.

He's gotten to know all the local Fire Fighters and told them to feel make themselves at home anytime, all that he asked is that they remember him if he ever has a fire. He's not there much during the week so it gives him some peace of mind.

 

[EddieWalker]

Contact your insurance carrier you should see a drop, ever so slight, now that you have a fire hydrant nearby. Insurance companies usually will give you credit if the fire hydrant is with 1000' of your home.

With my long term goal of building an RV Park on my land, I figured that a 4 inch water line would be plenty for my needs. Then I talked to several insurance companies to see what rates would be like. They have a list of things that determine what they will charge, and a fire hydrant was one of those things. If I have a fire hydrant on my land, my insurance will be less.

I ran a 6 inch water main into my land that I will put a fire hydrant on. Then I will split the line into two 4 inch lines for my water needs. The added expense of the pipe ismore then justified by both the amount of water that I'll have available and the ability to have a fire hydrant.

The water main along the highway that I live on is 12 inches. It has fire hydrants about every 1,000 feet.

Eddie

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Ed,

Glad you want with 6" as that is the minimum size required by NFPA standards which most insurance companies follow. I hope you have a documented maintenance program of inspection, lube, and flowing to continue receiving credit for the hydrant. Once the fire main comes onto private property you have a list of stuff that is required to be done.

If you do not have the latest NFPA codes and need to research the codes, here is link below. You can read BUT not print any NFPA code/standard. The code you want to look at is NFPA 24 for installation requirements and NFPA 25 for care and maintenance requirements.

Click on the code you want

Then go to the bottom of the page and click on "Preview this document".

Then click I agree

Then click on the code you choose at the bottom of the page.

List of NFPA Codes and Standards

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

I wonder , would ABC insurance co. insure a home in one state that has a volunteer F.D. but, wouldn't insure a home in another state with a volunteer F.D. ?? I know that laws are different in all states which, may not allow insurance companies to say they won't insure because of vol. F.D.. But, my question relates to the same insurance company having different operating policies just because it's another state. My inlaws live in an area (same state as me) with all vol. F.D. & have homeowners insurance but, they don't have the same co. that I have.

Ken,

It may all be driven by the ISO rating of the FD. They may have a policy that they will not insured any home with an FD ISO rating of say 7,8,9,10. Insurance companies can pick choose what they want to write. I do it everyday working of an insurance company. If I look at a business and it has too many uncontrolled fire hazards I tell my underwriter not to write this company and for the most part they do not. In the insurance world we have a thing called loss ratio, if it is above 100, meaning you took in $ and paid out more $$ in claims, profit sharing for that year is not too good. Most insurance companies have stock holders who what dividends and a profit each year.

 

[EddieWalker]

Ed,

Glad you want with 6" as that is the minimum size required by NFPA standards which most insurance companies follow. I hope you have a documented maintenance program of inspection, lube, and flowing to continue receiving credit for the hydrant. Once the fire main comes onto private property you have a list of stuff that is required to be done.

I failed to mention the best part of putting in the six in main water line and fire hydrant. After I pay for the materials and install it, I donate it to the Water District. They will do all the taps for a meter, install the meters and maintain everything before the meters. I've had two leaks so far in the six inch main. The first time was because they failed to block the end of the line properly, and after a very sever storm, the last pipe slid out of the line. When a six inch line is let loose, it's a massive amount of water that comes out!!!! The second time was probably a result of the first leak. A month or so later, there wasa small leak that was coming up. The pipe was leaking at the seal. They dug it up, cut out the seal and replaced it with a stainless steel sleeve. Since they now own the water line, even though it's on my land, they are responsible for it.

I'm doing the same thing with me sewage lines, collection tank and preasure line to their manhole. But that's another story that won't happen for awhile.

Eddie

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

I failed to mention the best part of putting in the six in main water line and fire hydrant. After I pay for the materials and install it, I donate it to the Water District. Eddie

Eddie,

1 less thing to worry about.

 

[marks]

I would assume that the local FD carries more than 600' of supply line, (an assumption that can be clarified with a phone call). In regards to the usage of ponds and such, they require labor and time intensive drafting operations, that could use the precious minutes needed to make a rescue. Yes, most engines carry between 400-750 gallons of water, but it can go quickly when things become hectic. I'm certain the local engine company would be glad to assess the situation at your residence. Hope this helps.

 

[RobertN]

So, who knows what a fire plug really is? Where the term came from?

 

[cjcocn]

So, who knows what a fire plug really is? Where the term came from?

That's a good question. For all I know it could be because old water mains were wood and had plugs in them for water supply access. But then again I ain't been learned as much as some of these other fellas here.