Fire Protection

[RonL]

I'm going to put in a perimeter drain on the upper side of my property. There is a culvert that dumps onto my property where I am going to put the collector. The culvert feeds from a 200 yard long roadside drainage ditch. There is much water when it rains. The collector will feed into a 5 to 10 thousand gallon cistern. I intend to put a standpipe connection on the cistern for Fire Department connection. I would like to also connect a pump to the cistern for fire protection. I'm thinking of an electric pump that would be instantly available in an emergency. PSNH tells me that the maximum HP that can be connected to their single phase service is 5HP. Is 5HP electric sufficient to run a fire protection pump? As I understand it a one and a half inch hose is considered minimum for attacking a fire. One site I looked at was selling a 6.5 HP gas driven pump that put out 360 GPM at 68 PSI. Another site recommended 125 PSI minimum for feeding a fire protection system. If 5HP electric is insufficient can two 5 HP electric pumps be used in tandem? Or maybe a 7.5 HP electric as it would be used only in emergencies? Anyone with experience?

RonL

 

[lamarbur]

are you trying to "charge" a home sprinkler system or just have instant draft available?

 

[slowzuki]

Sounds like a hand hose line. 1.5 inch is typical. Most nozzles require 65 psi to do their job of creating different spray patterns. This usually means about 60 usgpm or so out the nozzle if I recall correctly.

60 usgpm = about 8 ft3/min = 0.13333333 ft3/s of h2o

0.13333333 = 8.32 lb /s

65 psi = ~150 ft of h2o

8.32 * 150 = 1248 ft*lb/s = 2.26 hp

The power delivered to the water at the nozzle needs to be at least 2.25 hp, so with friction losses in the hose and the head from lifting from the cistern, I'd bet 5hp is just barely enough.

I'm guessing your power company would frown on 2 x 5 hp pumps. It would ease the start up draw though. We can run up 10 hp single phase here before they start hunting you down!

 

[SPIKER]

for the output you are looking at I would say that the 5HP would not do the trick BUT some water is better than NO water when a fire is going on.

One thing you didn't mention is how far you are going to pump the water? do you intend to have underground piping feeding the pump which is close to or inside the house/garage? (SUCTION LINE) and then a master connection for PRESSSURE out of the pump right near the pump discharge?

reason I'm asking is that you can run a 3" suction line right up to the pump inlet which will help reduce the friction losses.

also when wiring the pump you can wire dirrectly into the lines under the meter base that feeds the house. it will require it's own motor starter but is one of the FEW items that is alowed to be powered dirrectly from the incomming power line and not have to go through the house panel. this is incase there is a fire and the house power is lost or cut by the fire dept. the pump will still run.

the 2nd thing is the FD can tie dirrectly into the suction line and use their pumper truck to suck water dirrectly form the line, and treat it like a rural dry hydrant. even if there is water only inches below...

anyhow if it is close to the road then I assume that you were going to install the dry hydrant so the FD can get water there even if the neibors need it right>? You might give a call to the local FD to get their oppinions and maybe they could give best dirrections for setting up the hydrants and maybe even a list of materials or better yet the actuall materials? they may be able to get donations or materials donated for the project.!>???

anyhow our local fire dept was pretty nice bunch of guys. DON'T ask how I know!!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Mark m

 

[Lazy]

Hi
why is there a limit of 10 horse power? Are they concered with power factor? and what do they do after they find you?

Charlie

 

[tc35dforme]

My question Ron...are you planning on attacking a potential structure fire ??? I don't want to insult, but making a solo attack on a structure is scary....and in my opinion.....crazy. Do you have full turnout gear, SCBA, training, tools, etc ???

I'd be more inclined to look into an piped fire sprinkler system. Upfront cost may be higher, but its a lot better to take refuge and let the system do its best at controlling the fire.

Now if its for brush fires, then maybe you've got something.

Make sure you talk to the local FD if you will have a good water source. They will appreciate the heads-up and will most likely help you with the details of the set-up. You want to use fittings they can connect to !!

As for the pump, firefighting attack lines can flow in the area of 150 GPM and run a nozzle pressure of up to 100 PSI. That's a lot of horsepower. If you get too low on GPM you limit the ability to contain and cool the fire area quickly enough to be effective. Without the pressure, you don't get the nozzle performance or spray pattern you need for safe operation. The length of hose lay is also a factor in the equation.

A residential fire sprinler system ( NFPA13R ) can be installed with plastic pipie ( 1" ) and requires a very low pressure and flow. The goal is to stop the fire before it gets too big. Insurance companies are starting to offer pretty good discounts for residences with these systems.

Good Luck

 

[chucko]

Not sure what kind of fire your fighting. I would use a diesel pump (maybe even a PTO pump off my Kubota) mainly because.
Fire (forest or otherwise) could take out your electricity
Gas will explode easier than diesel IMO

 

[slowzuki]

An untrained person can't handle a 2.5" handline that the FD would use.

I too would recommend a residential sprinkler system for indoor protection.
Ken

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As for the pump, firefighting attack lines can flow in the area of 150 GPM and run a nozzle pressure of up to 100 PSI. )</font>

 

[RonL]

PSNH tells me that the single largest Motor that they like to see on a service is 5HP. No particular limit was set on the number. Probably has to do with the starting draw. I'm wondering if running two motors with pumps in series is feasible. Or,as I said, running a 7.5 HP pump in an emergency. What I'm looking for is something that is immediately available in case of an emergency. Where I'm building is a considerable distance up a town maintained gravel road. The Town does not have a fire department but relies on a neighboring towns FD. I don't know what the response time would be to my property but I would hate to be standing around while a minor fire turns into a major conflagration. I have no intention of charging into a fully involved building but would consider attacking a small fire before it got out of hand. I have pulled people out of burning buildings when I was the first unit on the scene. I'm aware of the dangers.
I am also considering a sprinkler system that would be powered by the same pump with a diverter valve.
I have a 200 amp service on the property that runs from a 200 amp breaker to a temporary service distribution board. This spring I will be setting up a small building that will be a distribution point for sub panels in my workshop and garage. This will also be the source of power for the pump. A second 200 amp sevice will feed the house. Thus, I will be able to shut power to the house and still have power to the pump.
Right now I have a fire pit near where I intend to put in the cistern. Having water available will be an asset. The house will be down slope from the cistern.

RonL

 

[tc35dforme]

Hey Ron,

Now things make a bit more sense....If your only talking initial containment and minor exposure, you could probably consider a much smaller attack line and limit flows. Standard attack lines are 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" and are flowing up to 150 GPM. You may want to consider going to a 1" line ( commonly called ' forestry' around here ). This will flow about 50 GPM, but is much easier to handle by an individual. Pulling 200' of 1 1/2" full of water by yourself is a chore, donking the 1" is a solo job.

Honda makes a pump that many local Fire Departments use on their brush trucks. Its a WH15 and puts out 50 GPM at 50 PSI. If you can locate the pump in a spot below the cistern, priming isn't a problem. The pump sits full of anti-freeze, you open the inlet valve ( cistern to pump ) and start that reliable honda engine.

An electric pump with similar capacity will be about 3 HP. The problem is that the electric will end up costing more with pump cost, wiring, etc. I'd guess the Honda would run about $ 600, add $ 1 / ft for hose and a few bucks for fittings and nozzle and away you go.

Good luck....

Are you north of Berlin ????