Firewood processor help

[jonix]

well..i definitly think that you should give your saw all that it can take..STIHL 40 RMHS chain can handle with a max of 87 HP and recomended speed is almost 8000 feet/minute..hope you recovery soon from surgery..i definitly want to see your machine working.. 190 HP?!?..how much gallons of fuel per hour are we talking about?

Don´t understand this: " The biggest problem with the saw cylinder is keeping it from jumping back up and throwing the chain when you lift the saw back out of the wood"..can you explain it to me? I have a pressure reducing valve that i´m going to use at saw cylinder..

And what rod size your twin cylinders have? You mencioned only the 4.5 in bore size..
And why twins? is better that way?

"...have more torque than a f11 without needing the high rpms to get there..."
well, with a F11-019, with all that oil you should be able to cut at 68 HP and 7500 feet/min and almost 500 lbf in of torque..78 HP required, 3000 PSI of pump pressure, and 40 GPM of oil..but this is the old discussion about low rpm motors VS parker F11 motors VS price
I think this subject deserves a dedicated topic:
what is the "perfect" configuration to cut firewood? (torque vs sprocket size vs chain type and pitch vs chain speed vs other thing else)
IS there any topic like this here in tractorbynet?

I saw your topic about 12 wedges configuration..very nice..

well..think ours processors are quite diferent ..i wish i was in the starting phase of my project, not in the end of it..190 HP ?!?!? how many tonnes of firewood do you splitt for year?

 

[muddstopper]

well..i definitly think that you should give your saw all that it can take..STIHL 40 RMHS chain can handle with a max of 87 HP and recomended speed is almost 8000 feet/minute..hope you recovery soon from surgery..i definitly want to see your machine working.. 190 HP?!?..how much gallons of fuel per hour are we talking about?
Dont have a clue as to how much fuel it will burn. I am thinking it wont be cheap, but motor also wont be running full rpms. Just have to wait and see.
Donｴt understand this: " The biggest problem with the saw cylinder is keeping it from jumping back up and throwing the chain when you lift the saw back out of the wood"..can you explain it to me? I have a pressure reducing valve that iｴm going to use at saw cylinder..
giving a cyl a given flow rate, it gets that same flow rate whether its extending or retracting. To fast extending= extra fast retracting. It just depends on how fast you want to push your saw thru the wood. Giving If you force it to cut, when you pull back on the lever, the saw can jump back up and cause problems. Not a real big deal, just need to restrict flow on the up stroke which can be done with a flow control.


And what rod size your twin cylinders have? You mencioned only the 4.5 in bore size..
And why twins? is better that way?
My reason for using twin cylinders is a matter of economics. I bought 8 cys and sold 6 of them and kept 2, I made $300 and had two cyl to use for my splitter. I would prefer just one cyl, makes it easier to plumb. Cyl are 30in stroke, 4.5in bore and 2.5in rod. Two cyl stacked on top of each other does have slight advantage in that you can spread your pushing pressure over the height of your pusher plate. I dont think its a big deal, but I basicly got paid to take the cyl's so I will use them

"...have more torque than a f11 without needing the high rpms to get there..."
well, with a F11-019, with all that oil you should be able to cut at 68 HP and 7500 feet/min and almost 500 lbf in of torque..78 HP required, 3000 PSI of pump pressure, and 40 GPM of oil..but this is the old discussion about low rpm motors VS parker F11 motors VS price
I think this subject deserves a dedicated topic:
what is the "perfect" configuration to cut firewood? (torque vs sprocket size vs chain type and pitch vs chain speed vs other thing else)
IS there any topic like this here in tractorbynet?There are several topics dealing with firewood processors. I think everybody has their own opinions and their own specific set of circumstances, so I dont think there is any one general rule you can follow. To me, and Ideal set up would be a saw that can drop a round at the same speed the cyl can split it. No waiting on the saw to cut and no waiting on the splitter to split. Real world, thats hard to accomplish. Rounds are different size and density so you will saw some rounds fast and some rounds slow.. I have demoed a few brands of processors and every one of them had a similar problem, I ended up waiting on the saw. That is why I plan on a saw with lots of power. Now to be honest, those same processors to the owners worked just fine to suit their needs and they thought I was just being picky. Well, if i am putting out the cash to purchase or build a processor, I want it the way I want it and dont care if anybody thinks its overkill.

I saw your topic about 12 wedges configuration..very nice.. Thank you:thumbsup:

well..think ours processors are quite diferent ..i wish i was in the starting phase of my project, not in the end of it..190 HP ?!?!? how many tonnes of firewood do you splitt for year?

Currently, only 4 cords per year, but I am fixing to retire from my current job and want the ability to process 100cd+ per year I will also add, My current splitter has a 25hp engine, 28gpm 2 stage pump, 5in bore cyliner and a 6way adjustable splitting wedge. I processed my 4cords for this winter last week and it took me 5 hrs, and that included stacking in the shed.I also have a boom mounted winch I pickup the big round with so I dont do any heavy lifting.
........

 

[J_J]

YOU didnｴt responde to my question: what do you think i am doind wrong, or plan to do wrong.

I don't think you would like what I have to say about this firewood processor concept.

Have you ever seen another firewood processor or a log splitter using 1300 psi as a limiting pressure when the pump, cyl, and valve can handle up to 3000 to 5000 psi.

I think you started out with a limitation of 25 HP, and you tried to make everything work around that.

I still don't understand what you did with the relief for each circuit.

Each hyd circuit should have a relief valve to limit the pressure to protect the pump or motor or both.

I am assuming that you went with 4 pumps for convenience. However I think you thought you could get full potential out of all 4 pumps.

With the displacements of the pumps you chose, you can't use the full potential of the pumps.

I have seen different numbers at to the GPM's, cu in, and pressure expected.

As to the cyls, are these homebuilt, and what qualifications were used to build same. If good specs and material were used , what failed in the first cyl?

I really don't know what your expectations were.

However I would have started out with the HP limitations of 25 HP, and found the cu in displacement that the motor could handle at 3000 psi.

I see that all the pumps can handle up to about 3000 to 4000 psi.

I do not know the cyl limitation. What is the max pressure rating?

However, it is easy to calculate the force giving the cyl bore rod size, and pressure to compute tonnage.

Why do you not have a relief valve set on the valve to limit the pressure on the cyl and load on the motor. You can not get by with the splitter circuit set at 3000 to 4000 psi, the motor just can not handle it.

If you only use the log splitter pump doing work, you would need 12.85 GPM at 3000 to use the potential of the electric motor.

Now about the gear pumps. I don't know what numbers are correct.

When one looks at a pump for volume and pressure, that figure is stated at max rpm. Are your pump GPM's computed for half speed which is the 1470 rpm electric motor.

A good pump can maintain the pressure developed by the load through the pumps rpm range.

Is it a wrong designed, maybe not for you. You have to live with what you built or can modify to suit your needs.

I am almost tired of using wrong data to compute things, where you are changing figures every so often.

Go ahead and use the system as you planed and then tell us what you expected and what really happened.

When I first read through the date posted, I thought you were going to load logs, cut logs and split logs and use conveyer to dump at the same time.

Some of the firewood processors I have seen, seem to be using all functions at the same time.

I am not impressed so far, but that is a nice wedge design.

I have asked for cu in of the log splitter pumps, and the pumps rated GPM and at what speed.

 

[muddstopper]

I dont know if he ever posted the cuin size of the pumps, maybe. He did say the posted flows are @1500rpms.
I dont think he will ever get to the level of automation he seems to be shooting for with his current setup. I do think if he is willing to compromise and not try to run the cyl and the saw at the same time, he can have a really badass saw, and his splitter seems to be working. His videos of the machine splitting wood didnt impress me. Looked a little slow for my liking. I havent figured out how his two stage pump setup works. If one pump only build 2000psi?? and the other pump build 3000psi, how is he seperating the flows. Only thing I can think of is that he is using a pressure switch to power his solenoid valves so that when pressure reaches 2000psi, the high flow pump just dumps oil back to tank, while the high pressure pump keeps supplying oil and pressure. This would work, but somewhere the two flows much be separated or the high pressure pump would backfeed the low pressure side. Maybe the flows are separated at the solenoid valve, so that when the pressure switch energizes the solenoid to dump to tank, it also blocks high pressure from backflowing thru the system. I am also in agreement, he needs some sort of relief to keep from stalling the electric motor. Failure to provide a relief is only going to result in a burn up motor. I know from his first video, there are some reliefs built into his solenoid valves, but am not sure if that reliefs pressure to a individual circuit or straight from the pump itself. If each valve spool in his solenoid setup has its own relief, then that might be enough, until one of them sticks and causes a pressure spike.

JJ, I have some question for you about using a closed center pump. When I figure out what i need to ask I will start another thread.

 

[jonix]

Here we go again with the same questions...

of course i am not planning to run all functions at same time in automatic mode..guys, i only have 25 HP of imput power, how can i run it all?!?!?!

JJ, this is the last time i post my circuit configuration..i already told you more than once that was not me who built this configuration, i am only trying to solve wrong things that someone (engineer) did, without spending money, and with limited time, since i urgently have to put some firewood drying..i have a firewood business to run, and have lots of health issues..i desesperatly need this machine working, or i have to quit selling firewood here in Portugal.. and please forget my past posts, and concentrate on this:

1- electric motor 25 HP @ 1470 rpm

2- Gear pumps flows @ 1500 rpm: 16,5 GPM and 2,7 cuin displacement, max intermitent 3000 PSI
12,7 GPM, 2,0 cu in, max 4100 PSI
8,9 GPM, 1,45 cu in, max 2800 PSI
6 GPM, 0,98 cu in, max 3250 PSI

3- 3 independent circuits (one for splitter, one for saw and saw cylinder, and another for all the rest) with independent block solenoid valves. I´m at 0 (ZERO) knowledge in this part of valves, reliefs, check valves, etc, but I swear I'll study this subject , and within a few days I can talk about this with some knowledge. I think I have somewhere the engineer circuit draw, i´m gonna find it and post it!

4- the splitter circuit work like yours surpluscenter 2 stage pumps..do the math, and you can figure out what i can do with 25 HP and 29,2 GPM at 1500 rpm, with 12,7 GPM at high pressure stage and 29,2 GPM at low pressure stage @ 6,3 in bore and 3,5 in rod cylinder.

5- My saw circuit have 2 solenoids: one for saw motor and one for saw cylinder (this one have some king of pressure regulator valve too, so i can change pressure in saw cylinder independent of pressure in saw, that have it own relief or check valve, or whatever it have). This is feed with the 8,9 GPM pump. Again, you can do the math, and figure out what my .404 chain should give. Don´t forget i have 2:1 pulleys ratio, and 12 tooth rim sprocket, and f11-010 parker motor.

6-the third circuit is feed by the 6 GPM pump, and it intend to work with clamp (this one have pressure valve, or what else kind of valve to clamp at what pressure i need), log conveyor, log deck, log lenght, and log push down system.

7- almost all my lines have flow control valves, so i can change things as i want

Think this is all I know about my machine..

About my homemade cylinder: it has no specs, it is homemade. If it explode, and since the machine will be working mostly in automatic mode, i hope to be away, stacking some wood or something..if i die, i will remember that you have been warning me about my homemade cylinder..

 

[jonix]

there is a link for manual mode:

soon i will post the machine at work..think is going to be quite slow, but is what i have for now..

 

[J_J]

You said.

About my homemade cylinder: it has no specs, it is homemade. If it explode, and since the machine will be working mostly in automatic mode, i hope to be away, stacking some wood or something..if i die, i will remember that you have been warning me about my homemade cylinder..

Here is an example of a hyd injury.

Fitting exploded in a gloved hand using a hyd tool.

 

[jonix]

woow..if that was made by a fitting, i wonder what it could happen with a cylinder explosion..

..hope that guy is ok, seriously..

some videos of the first test, without splitter and saw reliefs settings..yes..I already figure it out..have some kind of security valve, that limit pressure on each of my 3 circuits..as soon as pressure rises to pre determined numbers, the valve flows to tank, to protect pumps and system..think this called relief valve..in portuguese is "válvula limitadora de pressão"..

 

[jonix]

 

[jonix]