Firewood processor with winch

[OneUp]

Being new to hydraulics, I was hoping to get some constructive criticism on a project that I am stating to layout. The goal is to design/fab a firewood processor for home use. I burn anywhere from 4 to 6 cords a year, here in the northeast USA and the labor force (kids) will be leaving the nest soon.
Some parameters;
* Cycle time is not critical unless you are talking the two wheel kind.
* Current operation is mostly manual
* Given the terrain, I will winch the logs to the processor (no loading table)
* logs are mostly maples (red, sugar, striped), silver birch, cheery, and beech in the 12 to 14" diameter range
* hydraulic chain saw, log clamp, winch, and splitter for the main components

I was hoping to automate as much as possible so I was looking at the splitter directional valve - Prince Part number 9-6587-PB to handle the auto out and back. The winch would be it's own directional valve to handle retract, free wheel, and maybe a hold function. (not sure what valve) For the rest, I was thinking I could use sequence valves to handle the log clamp, saw motor, and cut arm piston.
Not knowing anything about the hardware side of hydraulics;
- are there directional valves with built in sequence valves
- if not would I need a manifold for each
- is that an efficient way of handling those related functions
- what kind of pressure drop or heat buildup is expected with sequence valves
- are the valves adjustable or do they come in set actuation pressures

There has been discussions regarding the automated chain saw feed cylinder but given the wood I have, it should be easier to find a 90% functional solution for the feed rate/pressure. I could give each function a valve but I'm sure there is a more efficient and eloquent method and I would like to learn some of the practical tradeoff between them. Reading the other posts have helped but I have not seen this combination before which changes too many variable to apply their methods.
any guidance would be appreciated, thanks

 

[oosik]

Welcome to TBN OneUp. Just my humble opinion - I think you are going WAY overboard for just 4 to 6 full chords.

I would recommend a more "standard" operation. Gas powered chain saw - cut the logs to length. Gas or PTO powered chipper - move the cut logs to the chipper and split. Trailer the split wood to it's storage location.

 

[Rustyiron]

Sometimes its equally about the coolness of the fab project as much as it's about breaking down some firewood.
There are a few good hydraulics guys here, hopefully they will hop on to this one. I've always wanted to build a processor but without some serious technical assistance in the "plumbing", I'd be wasting my time and money.
There's also a pretty experienced group over on

Firewood and Wood Heating

Page 1 of 59: The Forestry Forum

forestryforum.com

 

[Gordon Gould]

This has the potential of being a really interesting thread !

gg

 

[ruffdog]

Firewood processors work great if the logs are straight. If not, it is more work than it is worth. Now, if you built one that would work with most logs.....that would be $omething!

 

[OneUp]

Oosik, thanks.
Is there really such a thing as overkill?
Fair point but it seems like I spend a lot of time on firewood and last week the first fire was with wood that was greener than I would have liked. Part of that was due to the splitter being down waiting for the 4-way to be re-welded. I seem to be challenged in getting wood put up for anything but the up coming season. Just looking for something that can help with that.
If this works out, maybe I’ll sell a cord or two…

 

[OneUp]

Firewood processors work great if the logs are straight. If not, it is more work than it is worth. Now, if you built one that would work with most logs.....that would be $omething!

Ruffdog, where do the processor designs fail with crooked logs? I was going to use a Wallenstein WP835 as a starting point.

 

[OneUp]

Sometimes its equally about the coolness of the fab project as much as it's about breaking down some firewood.
There are a few good hydraulics guys here, hopefully they will hop on to this one. I've always wanted to build a processor but without some serious technical assistance in the "plumbing", I'd be wasting my time and money.
There's also a pretty experienced group over on

Firewood and Wood Heating

Page 1 of 59: The Forestry Forum

forestryforum.com

Rustyiron,
Thanks, I have been lurking at the forestry forum also. Yes, a large knowledge hole for me is the plumbing side. There seems to be a lot of valve configurations and considerations.

 

[Everhard]

Your comment about being challenged to get ahead of more than the season - For myself the answer to that was having more than enough place to store multiple years in advance. With that in place (and easy to fill) as others have mentioned a regular splitter (gas stand alone unit that goes horizontal/vertical in my case) does the trick. (I burn the same amount as you) Then for me it comes down to getting the most efficient method so I handle the wood the least amount of times. Generally I'll cut a pile of logs down to firewood lengths, then move the splitter to the pile then split and throw the splits directly into the trailer - that then goes to the storage and stacked directly out of the trailer.
I've thought about a processor as well, but ultimately I don't know that the cost is worth the effort. Still, I'm on the bandwagon with those saying do it! There's certainly a lot of pleasure in making something like that. If you get it done, it would help speed up processing the long logs, and if you first cut off the ugly Y trunks etc you could process those chunks separately with the regular splitter.
Alternatively I've dreamed up a "feed system" for my stand alone splitter where I could cut those long logs and then the cut rounds would feed onto the platform of the splitter which I could then grab, split, throw into trailer, repeat till the cut rounds from that log are complete then process the next log. not as "fully automated" as a processor but would certainly speed the process up if you're working on your own.

 

[Root Cause]

Great thread. I have just cleared some land and have 10' long logs stacked that will yield about 30-40 cords of wood.
So I need a good plan to chew through this but it is a one time situation. After that, I too am looking at 6 cords/year useage. I am hopeful that you figure this out for all of us.

 

[ruffdog]

Ruffdog, where do the processor designs fail with crooked logs? I was going to use a Wallenstein WP835 as a starting point.

The only processor I used was a large unit the neighbor rented. He used his track hoe to load the trunks of trees into. The WP835 is way smaller and requires more manual labor. A processor without a hydraulic movable wedge doesn't make much sense as pieces that need further splitting goes past the wedge. They would have to be retrieved to split again.

 

[OneUp]

Some processor designs have the splitter right under the log feed/cutter and some devert to the side for splitting. Any prctical reason one is better than another?

 

[OneUp]

Everhard, you make a good point regarding the ample space to stack multiple years worth of wood, I should look into expanding my platform. The challenge there is finding enough sunlight. Over the years I have been working on efficiency, started with a rope over my shoulder to drag the logs down the hill. Sometimes the hill/snow was enough that the log lead me down, other times... i think i compressed my spine. I now have a portable winch, huge advantage!! The "hill" also helps with the landing-to-stack; pics below. From the platform, it is a short walk to the stack on the back deck.

If not a full blown processor, I at least need to upgrade my block-n-tackle (strung with 550 cord) method of pulling logs off the landing to the sawbuck. The sawbuck did not survive this season. Not sure if I can build a hydraulic winch/sawbuck in a way that could, later on, be scabbed onto a processor...

The allure of building something and 'hopefully' learning about hydraulics is very strong. I recently finished a boat trailer to utility trailer conversion and bought a small stick welder when my gas rig couldn't make up for my lack of skill. I need a project to continue its 'justification'.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Welcome to TBN OneUp. For me it was what EverHard said. Get enough storage for 2 years worth. Once I did that it was easy to get ahead and easier to stay ahead. As I read your posts I wondered why you didn't use your 1980 Susuki XS850 tractor to help you. Wasn't familiar with it so I looked it up ....... to bad you can't put a bucket on it at least . That would be a great welding project.

Kidding aside this is what I do. I have this years wood in one side of the shed and next years in the other side. During the year I accumulate logs on the firewood landing as they become available by falling in the yard or across trails. I top off the log pile in late fall by pulling out blow downs or fresh cut trees from the woods to give me a years worth of logs. In the early spring I work up the logs into firewood and put them into the part of the shed I emptied the previous winter. So the wood has 2 summers to dry in the shed. I move the firewood from the landing to the shed with a trailer or in the tractor bucket.

gg

 

[oldnslo]

For hydraulics I would suggest writing a list of functions and then a desired sequence of operation this can then be used to design the hydraulic circuit.

I do not know of any directional valves with built in sequence function. Electric limit, proximity switches or pressure switches might be another option for sequence of operation

custom manifold is another option but typically one of manifold is real expensive

 

[Thunder chicken]

I’d like to add some thoughts…. I have a firewood processor and do 50-150 cords (full cords) per year with it. Google Blacks Creek 1500, you’ll see the basic machine. The bar is belt powered from a 13hp Honda also driving the hydraulic pump for the splitting ram and log lift and infeed conveyor belt.

Don’t bother with a hydraulic saw. Too much $$ and complex for your needs unless you want to spend lots. Do some searching, look at a Wallenstien firewood processor, that’s more along what you’ll likely build.
Use a winch to pull your logs up, move the cable/choker and keep winching through. Have a chainsaw on a pivot…. Drill a hole through a bar, that simple. Make the splitter section a V shape so the blocks fall down into the V trough. Cutting from the bottom up may work better to make the pieces fall straight down, then the sawdust will get blown away from you as well. Blocks that don’t fall straight need to be monkeyed with to roll into or be straight in the splitting area. Hence having them simply fall straight down and self align with a V trough. The cylinder I use is a 3” bore with an upgraded rod (13/4” I think) for faster return time. Ports opened up and using 3/4” hose. 24” stroke. I have a ‘dump valve’ on the return to send the base end oil back to the tank rather than through the whole system. (Sped up cycle time about a second)
The 2/4 way wedge is manual height adjust. It works fine. No hydraulics needed. You have a clamp arm on your body, the one not running the pivoting saw.
Now, the second biggest problem with the processor is getting the split wood away from you, you need a conveyor that will carry it away. The splits need to push onto it without getting bunged up. I had a V trough with a hay chain style and it sucked for me. Moved to a rubber belt conveyor and it hasn’t missed a beat. I have a 16’ conveyor that I can adjust the height on with a long stroke ram. At max height I can pile about 2 cords of wood under it before having to reposition the machine.
My set up will do a cord (128cu/ft) an hour on 13hp. It runs cheap easy to get 325 pitch chain, 18” bar. Bars and chains wear out faster on the processor than a saw. There’s no forgiveness in crooked cutting. Wore Bars make saws cut crooked just a tad, that jams a processor or makes it work harder to cut.
I think the Wallenstien style processor would work well for you, leave your logs long, winch them up in, pivot a saw through, block falls into a V trough, ram pushes through a knife onto a conveyor. Sounds Easy!!!

 

[Fxfymn413]

A friend and I usually find trees within a short distance from our houses so we can drive the tractor to them. We than buck them into logs which we load onto a dump trailer to get them to our wood yard. When the weather turns cold we buck and split them using my home built wood splitter which has a 13 HP engine, high volume pump, auto return valve, and log loader. We generally do around 10-15 cords a year which keeps three families in wood. The key to doing volume is to get everyone who benefits together to do the splitting. With a crew of four or more we can do a cord an hour.

I used to stack the split wood on pallets, actually my wife did, but the problem with that is the pallets would rot out and if the pallet was not stacked correctly, i.e. the ones I did, they would not stay stacked as I moved them around. So I sucked it up last year and sprung for 30 IBC's which work great. They are faster to load, uniform in size so they store more easily, are easier to keep covered using plastic from the tank, and do not come apart.

 

[OneUp]

Thunder Chicken,
Thanks for the info! I have been looking at the Wallenstien WP835 (and their other lines) but I have not seen Blacks Creek. Blacks Creek has a couple neat features to simplify the machine. I like the manual height adjuster for the 4-way, I have a lot of variation in log diameter that would make a fixed head inefficient. Not sure how the saw is coupled but I guess that would be much cheaper and a simpler fab. Yes, my plan was to feed with the winch and given my setup, no table is needed. Currently I drag/skid full length trees and would want something that could process a full tree.
Not sure I would trust "my clamp arm" especially if I cut from the bottom. Even in their own videos, the log started to get away from the operator a couple times. More so I am worried about partially dragging a tree off the landing so it is presented to the processor at an angle.
Could you post or send a pick of the saw bar arrangement?
This would definitely simplify the hydraulics. I have been resisting the manual saw feed but it does make sense for my scale...

Fxtymn413,
Sorry, i'm new to this, what is a IBC? I am guessing you didn't buy a lot of my most favorite rood beer.

 

[Everhard]

Regarding your stacking area as Gordon Gould said having a method of keeping this year and next separated is key - myself I'm stacking between carport posts which are just over 8' apart.
My suggestion looking at your storage area would be do something similar to what I do - I use wood pallets vertically on the ends of my stacks which do a few things for me - I don't have to be careful like you are doing to build a nice end to my stack so it doesn't fall over. (Great looking stacking job btw!) That makes stacking much quicker for one thing. Also the pallets allow for air flow as they aren't solid. Also pallets usually can be had for free. You will need something (post for example) vertically behind the pallets to hold them in place of course. And lastly building divided sections makes it easy to separate a year's worth of wood from another. (or half a year per section - what ever amount you want. Mine is divided into approx 2 bush cords per section as an example.)

E.

 

[ericm979]

what is a IBC?

IBC tote.

They are super common for transporting liquids.

The plastic bladder comes out and you stack wood in the cage. The 275 gallon ones (most common size) hold about a third of a cord or a little more.

A 275 gallon tote full of green Madrone or Tan Oak (my two most common hardwood firewood trees) weighs about 2200lbs.

Many people cut a 'door' in the cage to make it easier to reach inside to the bottom.

When you acquire them make sure they don't contain toxic liquid.