Fleetguard air filter - sad to say.....

[daugen]

Too bad both Consumer Reports and the auto mags stay away from comparison testing of motor oil, filters for oil, air and fuel that we all use. The desire to use a "better" filter
is enormous in so many areas, from cars to boats to excavators to space ships. Why do we have so little comparative info available? Advertising squelches some, but I wonder if the sore losers
use legal means to make this kind of journalism rare. I'm sure there are many articles on the issue, but actually rankings, well I think that would be a hot topic here.

The challenge is to not get overly bogged down in acceptability of specs and whose specs, because they will come flying in from all directions. It seems the only real thing we can depend upon is
the oil will at least be the right grade when we buy it, and we can all mostly agree, for example, on a 15/40 diesel motor oil standard spec (exceptions galore I'm sure) but agreeing to all the lubricity and chemistry specs is over the heads of many of us here. So who plays Boss here and sets the spec? What organization has the most credibility? API and who else? I'm sure there are threads that speak to many of the issues here. But the bottom line is that these questions keep coming up in a variety of forums. We are all searching for a better filter, and that means one that will provide cleaner fluids, proper pressures, etc, and things we can all agree to like not break down into little bits and head downstream.

And should there be a basic, extended use, and rough condition spec for each type of filter?

It just doesn't seem that complicated to saw ten oil filters apart, compare their construction, and then pressure test, flow test, filter test, whatever is needed, based on meeting the agreed upon spec.
Perhaps the publicist is worried that Fram's corporate dept. loves to sue its detractors (of which I have zero idea but they are a huge player for sure) or that Fleetguard is going to get really embarrassed if their filter performs badly.

Santa, I'd like a comparison report on the top ten selling motor oil, diesel fuel, hydraulic oil, gasoline and air filters that at least screens out the bad ones, and gives us some idea what our purchasing dollar is paying for.

Someone who changes oil every three thousand miles for some other acceptable reason might not need a super high quality oil filter. So it's ok not to buy the best, and likely an area for savings for some who have been throwing out a lot of not very dirty premium filters. Now I am not the guy to have a micron bypass chat with, it's not my area of expertise. But can I raise my hand and say I'd like to know the end use date on all filters? Like when the paper starts to decompose...
We do have operation hours and mileage as agreed upon parameters, so could anyone tell me that this gas filter is good for two years max even if totally clean?

Many of you are scientists and lubrication engineers that could debate the specs extensively. And I think companies like Fram have a lot of internal test data they are keeping private, comparing, for example, their own three or four price points for identical oil filters. They would know what happens in the real world by now, after all these years, based on the different specs they have set.

Motor oil seems to have good specs, and they change fairly often usually improving the spec, which tends to improve the performance of the product, or so we hope.
But what about filters? And I still scratch my head when I think of Kubota's manual text suggesting letting the air filter get dirtier because it works better when dirtier.
That's when I know something was really out of whack in the filter business. Kubota apparently can't get anyone to meet a "when new" filtering spec they like but when the filter, by normal use,
becomes more clogged, that improves its performance more to Kubota's liking. My guess is because the micron pass rate has been reduced, but that doesn't offer much clog resistance. Regardless,
the idea that a new filter does not provide the best performance and/or meet the desired spec just intrigued me. Why don't we have a filtration performance spec, even a range, we can all agree to?
And of course there are application specific exceptions, but do we really need small engine, marine, motorcycle, diesel, diesel truck, high performance, extended life, high mileage, ad nauseum?
Too much marketing and not enough usable info out there. Or do we just all take Caterpillar's word for it? And that word is?

Motor Trend should do a comparison review. Hah, look at the advertisers. Or Popular Mechanics, someone we could trust to set testing standards and show results based on those standards.
Likely most would pass and do just fine. Which based on the comments I've read in so many places, stating they were very happy with A through Z, current manufacturing specs for filters may be high
enough. Or maybe they should be better. I bet a lot of us wish we knew.

I can speed type, sorry this is so long. And perhaps somewhat of a windbag...

 

[3930dave]

P'Cat - I'm always hearing good things about Donaldson, I may check 'em out myself.

When I bought my first used Ford truck, not that many years ago, I asked a wise wrench I know about decent basic oil filters - Motorcraft or Fleetguard was the answer.

On most of my vehicles, the oil filters aren't on there all that long (ie. not years), but even so, I found I could see rust appearing on the Fleetguard case (sidewall) through the paint. Didn't really impress me, but the filter functioned properly (as far as I could tell) and since I can't afford to compete in car shows, I didn't lose sleep over a bit of rust.

That said, I have seen a truck come into my friends commercial shop that was seriously leaking oil from a hole rusted through the sidewall of an oil filter. That was a white cased oil filter, but I can't swear that it was a Fleetguard.

Point being.... take a filter with low quality steel walls, and let the oil become overly acidic, fast forward just a bit in time.... easy to see where it could leak.

Mostly, these days, I've settled on Pure One for oil filters. I stock up when I'm in the USA. Prices, taxes, and Eco fees are better/non-existent in NY state, than in Ontario. Good deal for me, and Purolator distribution in Canada is weak compared to the other majors. P1's have a good rep, I think they are a good filter, and with the exception of the Teflon coating delaminating (only on one particular engine, but repeatedly - I'm stumped, and so is Purolator on this one) I have no complaints about these P1's.

Daugen - for various reasons, I like to research what I'm using - like many of us that hang out here. If you (meaning people in general, not you specifically) are somewhat OCD inclined, it is pretty easy for these discussions to devolve into a geek jihad flavour.

As I commented in another thread "Instead of us (me included) spending all this time debating "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin", most people are much better served by getting some basic fluids and filters and doing the Scheduled Maintenance on time". It took me spending time around my friends commercial shop and seeing vehicles rolling in with plugged air and fuel filters, fluids way overdue for replacement, and crankcases and gearboxes virtually empty of oil to really appreciate that sentiment.

Don't get me wrong - we're not into that vibe in this thread, and I'm definitely enjoying the exchange of info we've covered on these filter issues.

What concerned me initially was that a reputable Manufacturer may be slipping. I have a habit of finding one in million defects, so this thread was a necessary sanity check. (OK, the jury is still out on me being sane..... :laughing: ).

I've thought about many of the aspects you just commented on, reaching many of the same conclusions, or dead end questions. There is just way too much money at stake for commercial publications to engage in the meaningful, properly controlled and audited Engineering tests required to do the comparisons we'd like to see. Consumer Reports might be one exception.

People will get criticized for doing filter tear downs in their own garage "Not properly controlled, you don't have the flow bench metrology in place...." and posting the results online. We all have to guard against anybody posting slanted or unintentionally skewed information, but IMO this grassroots type of information sharing (and the discussion we are having here) is largely a backlash against the lack of real information in the market, and the monumental influence of corporate marketing budgets.

I'm always grateful for ANYBODY taking the time to do a structured tear-down on anything, taking pictures, and sharing their observations. I can draw my own conclusions just fine, given the raw data.

You raise an excellent point about filters. We are now seeing references to Standards for % filtration performance, at XY microns, in some of the marketing for mid-range and higher level consumer filters, but what about the overall filter design ? Burst strength, drain-back valve life-cycle at -25C, etc. If there are industry standard specs for these aspects of filters, they aren't in the marketing material. Winter has settled in here, so that may be a research project for me, on another night.

Thanks again All, for sharing your experiences.

(And, No Daugen, you don't have the market cornered on wind ! )

Rgds, D.

 

[sixdogs]

There have been positive comments on both Donaldson as well as Baldwin. Would these be considered equals or does anyone like one better than the othe?

 

[3930dave]

There have been positive comments on both Donaldson as well as Baldwin. Would these be considered equals or does anyone like one better than the othe?

6D - I too consistently hear the same positive comments about Donaldson and Baldwin, but have no direct experience - listening with interest.

On the oil side, I had been considering Fleetguard's Stratapore as an upgrade option for my 7.3. It would also be interesting to hear from anybody who has some time in with Fleetguard's higher end filters. Not sure if/what tradename they have on higher end air filters.

Perhaps Fleetguard is letting things slide (intentionally or not) on their lower end products,while staying the course on their higher end ones ?

Haven't checked lately, but as I recall, Stratapore and Donaldson were roughly in the same ballpark price wise, on my 7.3.

I don't have a compelling reason to shift from Pure One oil filters at this time, as I'm happy with the performance/price point. Wix gets the nod for air filters.

Any suppliers Quality can change fast though, and I like to have B and C options in the wings, esp. for high use maintenance items. I will continue to follow this discussion, and other related ones.

Rgds, D.

 

[sixdogs]

Purolater is a great filter and probably near equal to the best you can buy for on-road purposes.
The price of filters, by the way, is really chump change in the game of things. The cost betweem top of the line and average price is only a dollar or two and we spend that on bottled water or coffee.

 

[3930dave]

Most maintenance aware people have no issues with putting that little bit of extra money into filters.

A few people are actually that broke, but still need to drive to get around/to work, etc. Pretty much any basic new oil filter is better than ignoring an oil change, so where people are really counting pennies, I've suggested the Purolator Classic to them. The Pure One has a few internal upgrades, but if you look at the filtration performance, the Classic is not that far behind the P1.

As the Brits say "Penny wise, and Pound foolish" is usually not a good approach to maintenance. But, I will get back to this issue, from a Canadian standpoint....

A lot of what we have been covering here is separating the real quality parameters from the marketing hype, and trying to verify if the present day quality of a manufacturer that used to make a reliable product has wavered. Talk about shades of gray, where we'd prefer to see black and white distinctions !

Being Canadian, I hadn't seen much of Purolator up here on retail shelves. I stumbled across Pure Ones while researching non-factory options for my motorcycle...... and I've never looked back. Oil filters (same Manf/PN) are often 25 to 50%+ more in Canada and our Sales taxes are higher.

What drives me really wild here are the "Eco" fees. I don't like seeing stupid things done to the Environment (ie. dumping waste oil into a river), but these "Eco" fees are nothing more than a tax grab.

Of course, the way the Canadian ciphering is done, the $5 (or less) oil filter in the USA is $8+ here, THEN the 50cent+ "ECO" fee is added on, THEN that subtotal has 13% HST added on as well. (BTW, a lot of the auto parts I buy in the USA are actually made in Canada).

So I've taken to counting my pennies by buying Pure Ones in Upstate NY. Per 6D's point, relative to the overall cost of operating a car, I'm not saving that much money, really. BUT, in my case, where I'm really saving money is by NOT having to buy the blood pressure meds I'd need to continue paying the Canadian prices !

Canadian Rant Off.

Rgds, D.

 

[PoorMansCat]

The best Fleetguard Stratopore filter available for my 5.9L Cummins is rated at 25 micron...This is the LF16035. The Donaldson is rated at 15 micron... Both at 99%efficiency.

 

[Bigfoot62]

There have been positive comments on both Donaldson as well as Baldwin. Would these be considered equals or does anyone like one better than the othe?

6D - I too consistently hear the same positive comments about Donaldson and Baldwin, but have no direct experience - listening with interest. . .

A bad apple is apt to turn up in ANY barrel.
Just to confuse the issue some more, I asked this question to my heavy truck mechanic last week. (he owns 8 semi-trucks and a diesel truck repair shop)
He said that the ONLY filter that he had ever had problems with was a Baldwin. After 3 filter failures, he quit buying them. Now uses Fleetguard or LuberFiner.
He feels the same way that I do about the NAPA filters - good filters that are way over-priced.

 

[3930dave]

Hmmm.... maybe they all shipped their production to China ? Thanks for the data Bigfoot, maybe that particular filter model was the one the first-term Co-Op Engineer designed on his own

Not defending Baldwin, like you said it can turn up anywhere. We be just hanging out here, seeing if any particular Manufacturer is turning out an occasional bad apple, or if most of the harvest is rotten..... hey, beats watching TV at least.....

Micron wars.... hmmm.... can be "fun" with modern fuel filters if you dial the microns down too far, and the flow rate isn't supported - those new fuel pumps are spendy to replace once the diaphragm is torn. On my ole 7.3, I need to educate myself further before dialing down the microns on the oil filter P'Cat, as that filter has no bypass as I recall.

I've read, but not tested fortunately, that the 7.3 is quite capable of blowing a filter can that it deems too restrictive clean off the block.

PureOne is rated at 20 micron, it would be interesting to view the flow rate data (if available) for it and the Donaldson.

If I'm remembering correctly, the Stratapore media won at least one industry engineering award - dropping the micron rating down to a smaller scale AND keeping the flow rate up/or better is a pretty good trick. (Kinda the inverse of the K&N air filter dealeo). A bit moot, if Fleetguard is trading quality for cost... but, I'm keeping and open mind on this issue, and listening on.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Copperhead]

I don't know enough about that to argue the point.

My source was a local KW parts manager. Several years ago, he had toured the Fleetguard plant, and saw the CAT filters being made there. Who knows? Contracts can change. Or, perhaps, it's a case of some made here and some made there. ??? It's also possible that I was given bad information. (I doubt it, but possible)



It's the box. The NAPA box is worth a lot more.

Our problem around here is availability.
I have to drive for at least 20 miles to get to ANY parts house. NAPA is the only local parts house that carries WIX, and the only one that stocks filters for big trucks. It's about 55 miles to the closest KW dealer, and 70 to the Navistar. (in the opposite direction) The KW dealer carries CAT and Fleetguard filters. The Navistar dealer carries CAT and LuberFiner filters. An independent parts house, 50 miles in yet a different direction, carries Baldwin filters.

I get all my big truck filters at Ryder Fleet Products - Truck Parts, Shop Supplies, Safety Products, Shop Tools

I can get Donaldson Extended life, synthetic media filters for my Detroit at around $20 a pop. The standard ones are somewhere around $14. I think my 7 micron Donaldson fuel filters I get for my Davco fuel unit are just under $6 a pop. I usually buy by the case. When I had my Cummins ISX, I got all of my filters thru Ryder also. Been using them for quite a few years. Anyone can get online at Donaldson and check the cross reference for whatever filters they are using now and see if Ryder has that Donaldson in stock.