Foolish Lubricant Question

[DickS]

I own a diesel pickup truck with an Allison automatic transmission. Allison is recommending Transynd (synthetic) as a replacement fluid for longer service life. What is the basic difference between ATF and HST fluid? Can the two be used interchangeably? Transynd is pretty expensive stuff but I would consider buying it if I could use it for my truck transmission as well as my Kubota BX-24.

 

[DieselPower]

No lubricant's question is foolish. The only foolish question is the one not asked.

Transynd ATF (the spec is TES-295) is a ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and should be used as such. It does share many of the characteristics of a UTF (universal tractor fluid) as far as the additive package is concerned. There are some differences however with the greatly increased EP (extreme preasure) additive package of the UTF being one of the big diferences. UTF's not only act as a hydraulic fluid but as a gear lubricant and in some applications a wet clutch and wet brake lubricant. ATF's may not have the proper formulation of anti-chatter additives needed in a tractor as the friction materials are different and the extreme preasure loads in tractor gear sets is much higher than that found in the planatery gearsets of a automatic transmission. On the flip side ATF's are better suited to handle the higher operating temperatures found in automatic transmissions along with their special additive package to deal with other automatic transmission specefic lubrication needs.

ATF is best used in automatic transmissions and UTF's in tractors. That's what they are designed and blended for.

 

[mrutkaus]

Mr. D. Power, what would you think of adding some 1-2 micron moly (TS Moly's Guard Dog 451) to the hydraulic fluid of a CK30HST at the first change, which I am doing as I type?

If so, how much?

Mike

 

[DieselPower]

I wouldn't use a 1-2 micron Moly additive. At that size it stands a very good chance of being filtered out. If your going to use a Moly additive it should be in the sub-micron size range. Either something in the .33 micron range or a completly organic oil soluable moly.

 

[DickS]

This is the response I received from an inquiry to Castrol, the people who make Transynd ATF for Allison Transmission:

Dear Sir:

Allison Transynd is suitable for use in "hydrostatic" or hydraulic transmission applications, which are commonly used in smaller (lawn & garden) tractors. These hydrostatic drive systems are comprised of a engine-driven variable displacement hydraulic pump transmitting power via the pressurized hydraulic fluid to a hydraulic motor which drives the wheels. Transynd is a heavy-duty automatic transmission fluid and it is common for ATF's to be used in hydraulic applications.

However, the Transynd fluid is not suitable for use in medium to large tractors which employ a common sump shared by a powershift transmission, hydraulic system, and final drive with wet brakes. Equipment of this type requires a friction surprised (sp?) universal tractor fluid such as Castrol UTF .

Transynd can be used for Hydrostatic applications but not for Powershift applications.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Regards,

 

[DieselPower]

Kind of along the lines of what I said. It does not have the additive package to handle common sump systems found in tractors.

 

[workinallthetime]

back in 01 when i went through the allison class they were using the stuff on all the big rig over the road trucks. After a few years the stuff started turning up in production trucks
we were initally told to under no circumstance mix the regular fluid with the syn fluid. then we were told it was ok then not again. lol
we put whatever is in it back in it.

speaking of your trans, i hope you changed your spin on at 3k miles and transfered the magnet to the new filter.
allison told us that you should do a spin on at 3k
and leave it alone till 100k under normal driving conditions
under not so normal
3k spin on
25k spin on
50k pan drop new filter and spin on
75k spin on
100k pan drop new filter and spin on
but you wont find that in your owners manual.
if its a 4x4 check your x-fer case everytime you change your oil, ive seen a bunch which lost all their fluid by about 50k

 

[KICK]

I work in a fleet that has 1000 vehicles equipped with either Allison B300, allison b400's or 2000 models.

We use Transynd, change it at a 72k mile interval

we run severe service, all stop and go, average miles per hours of about 10, run 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

most of our trannies last at least 300,000 miles before failure.

not so whe we used straight conventional Dexron, we had to change fluid and filters at a 12k interval or the oil would turn to mud and the trannies would generally develop issues around the 100k mile mark.

I'd swear by the brand, its factory fill on our new stuff.

As someone else said, its not universal tractor fluid.
we use it in our hydraulic systems but it is OK'ed by the factory for ATF.

 

[workinallthetime]

I work in a fleet that has 1000 vehicles equipped with either Allison B300, allison b400's or 2000 models.

We use Transynd, change it at a 72k mile interval

we run severe service, all stop and go, average miles per hours of about 10, run 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

most of our trannies last at least 300,000 miles before failure.

not so whe we used straight conventional Dexron, we had to change fluid and filters at a 12k interval or the oil would turn to mud and the trannies would generally develop issues around the 100k mile mark.

I'd swear by the brand, its factory fill on our new stuff.

As someone else said, its not universal tractor fluid.
we use it in our hydraulic systems but it is OK'ed by the factory for ATF.

was it the old at540's that had the black mud? the lct1000 in the the d-max 01-02 models had some pretty nasty fluid after about 70k

 

[KICK]

was it the old at540's that had the black mud? the lct1000 in the the d-max 01-02 models had some pretty nasty fluid after about 70k

no it was on our large buses, they have the B300. they also have a retarder, which causes higher sump temps.

only vehilces we still have with an AT 540 are Bluebirds. those dont hold up. I dont think the At 540 in our vehicle has a torque converter clutch or ever run the speed where it applies, engine cooling fan only kicks in at 200 degrees so we french fry At 540's regularly,

We got some other mini buses with the Allsion 2000, which is similar to the tranny in the GM pickups. those trannies have held up excellently. In fact I haven't seen one replaced yet and they have 4 years of service now.

 

[cowpie1]

Amsoil Torque Drive transmission oil made for the Allison is far cheaper that the OEM stuff and does just as well, and in most cases, better than OEM.

Here is some info:

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1967.pdf?zo=1350363

For price? A gallon of Amsoil Torque-Drive is $38.20 retail or $27.65 Preferred Customer price. Of course, cheaper in bulk.

Your call.

 

[DieselPower]

And like most Amsoil products it is not licensed. There are 5 Allison TES-295 specification license holders, Amsoil's not one of them.

 

[cowpie1]

So,,,, how is that a problem? Amsoil products have a warranty. If it screws up the equipment, they will repair/replace it. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act of '75 does not allow Allison or anyone else to void a warranty because you don't use a "licensed" oil. Unless of course they provide the oil, change it themselves, etc FREE OF CHARGE.

I read on the forum all the time how people are trying to save a buck here and there, yet on this issue some want to pay the high price for a "licensed" product when there is a cost effective alternative that works.

The Torque-Drive product is equal to the TES-295 spec of Allison, or else they couldn't make the claim without legal action from Allison. So far no legal action, not warranty payout, no problems.

Go Figure.....

 

[AlanB]

So,,,, how is that a problem? Amsoil products have a warranty. If it screws up the equipment, they will repair/replace it. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act of '75 does not allow Allison or anyone else to void a warranty because you don't use a "licensed" oil. Unless of course they provide the oil, change it themselves, etc FREE OF CHARGE.

I read on the forum all the time how people are trying to save a buck here and there, yet on this issue some want to pay the high price for a "licensed" product when there is a cost effective alternative that works.

The Torque-Drive product is equal to the TES-295 spec of Allison, or else they couldn't make the claim without legal action from Allison. So far no legal action, not warranty payout, no problems.

Go Figure.....

actually, the abbriged version of it is here.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm

And I would disagree with your statement about allowing you to use "licensed" oil. You still have to follow the manufacturers reccomendations and use approved fluids for the manufacturer to stand behind their products.

What I read the M & M act as doing is keeping a manufacturer from specifying that you can only use "their" oil that you must purchase from "them". As long as it meets their specs it would be allowable to be used.

But as in the previous discussion with MikePa, that is how the courts get involved in things when two people take the same information differently.

 

[DieselPower]

I think one thing people tend to forget is that the Magnuson-Moss act was written for passanger automobiles. It does not cover commercial/agrictural equipment and vehicles.

 

[AlanB]

I just must be disagreeable, but it covers "consumer Products" So long as it is not being used commercially, I believe the stuff most folks on here have fit that category, whether it is Ag or Not. (unless there is some part of it I am missing? )

Introduction
This manual is intended as a businessperson's guide to the basic features of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the federal law governing warranties on consumer products. The text provides citations to specific sections of the law—the Warranty Act itself, the Rules the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) adopted under the Act, and the FTC's Warranty Advertising Guides. For reference purposes, a supplement to this manual containing the Act, the Rules, and the Guides is available from the FTC's Consumer Response Center. See Additional Sources of Information.

 

[Soundguy]

Ag, unless hobby use.. would seem to indicate some level of business.. IE Farm business.. thus the necescity to file a schedule F on your tacxes ( profit or loss from farming??? )

Hmm.. that's a tough one... farming is such a special situation

Soundguy

 

[KICK]

So,,,, how is that a problem? Amsoil products have a warranty. QUOTE]

Amsoil Synthetic Torque-Drive™ ATF Replaces Castrol® TranSynd®

 

[HGM]

Obviously EVERYTHING is up for interpretation.... I have seen several very solid cases completely thrown away because someone cited the M&M act... Blatent abuse of vehicles, heavy modifications all excused by this M&M act that basicly states that The customer is always right even when they do something dumb(I'm not saying this oil topic is dumb, just giving my opinion of the M&M itself).. Its like justifying the Hot McDonalds coffee incident, where the lady blamed them for her mistake...

Bottom line, unless you are a chemical engineer and can dicect the composition of an oil and prove beyond a shadow of doubt that this oil is better than the oil that the MFG engineers deemed correct, the topic is kind of pointless.. I can totally respect the question as no question is dumb. Its the idea that M&M must come to play to say that "I can use whatever I want" just to justify a product like Amsoil.. If it was so superior and economical, someone would be using it in production.. Just my opinion of course, but I had to say it....

 

[cowpie1]

I guess the proof in the pudding is that after Amsoil has made its claims regarding Torque-Drive oil, Allison nor Castrol has filed a claim with FTC. If Amsoil were making wild claims, Allison and Castrol would protect their turf.

What it all comes down to is this.... Some will only use the Maytag repair man to work on their washing machine, even though a reputable repair man can do the same.

Some will only feel comfortable using a particular oil because of the wishes of the equipment manufacturer. All of this is not a problem with me. Use whatever trips your trigger. I am comfortable using the Amsoil product and I get to save a little in the process. I have nothing against those that wish to stand their ground and use only certain other products. It was not my intent to tick anyone off. Only to show that an viable alternative existed and would be more cost effective.

Everyone has their own comfort zone.