JC-jetro
Elite Member
CJ,
Dumping fuel from he bowl is not necessary. I only brought it up to emphasize the gravity nature flow and how fuel replaces the air as the bleed screw is opens. It was mentioned for the clarity.
JC,
CJ,
Dumping fuel from he bowl is not necessary. I only brought it up to emphasize the gravity nature flow and how fuel replaces the air as the bleed screw is opens. It was mentioned for the clarity.
JC,
For a long needed update, I finally got to get back to checking the fuel/injection system. I started by adding more fuel to the tank. The tank height looks to be in the factory position. All of the rubber pads that the tank sits on are still there. The bottom of the tank is higher than the fuel filter bowl. I turned off the fuel cut off below the tank and again dumped the fuel from the bowl. There was a little more sediment in the botton of the bowl that I clean out with a little gas and a tooth brush. I verified the filter was still in the right spot and put on the fuel bowl back on.
I then turned the fuel supply back on. The bowl filled up with fuel in about two seconds. I then went on to the two bleed screws about the fuel bowl. I opened both at the same time and fuel streamed out of the first one and trickled out of the second on. I closed the first on and then the second one started to stream. I then moved on to the bleed screw on the injector pump. Upon openning that one, I got a steady trickle of fuel. From there I moved on to the two metal lines feeding the injectors. I totally took the nut off the left one and with my extra set of hands turning the key, I watched a pulsing of fuel squirting out about every 3/4s of a second. I put that nut back on and went to the right injector line. With the nut off, I saw the same pulsing of fuel.
I replaced the nut and then turned the key switch to the left to warm the glow plugs for about 15 seconds. I then tried to start it with the fuel lever at about half. It turned over, but didn't start. I put the fuel lever at fuel throttle and the engine turned over a little faster for a moment and then back to the previous speed. All this time the exhaust is white. Thinking the battery could be a little week from all the current and past troubleshooting, I hooked my truck up with jumper cables, but got the same result.
I moved on to pulling out the glow plugs. I noticed they didn't seem warm at all. I put them mostly back in the block and connected a jumper wire directly from the positive battery terminal to the plugs and help for 15 seconds. I then took them back out of the block to find them to hot to touch and smoking with what appeared to be some "carbon" on them, but no where near red as I saw in someone's past post. Could this be caused by bad glow plugs? Is there a test that can be done on the glow plugs? I didn't notice that they do cool off fairly fast.
Someone else I discuss these issues with is persistant in telling me to pull start the tractor. If told him in the manual that it specifically says not to pull start it. Does anyone know if it is mechanically OK to pull start it and the manual is just saying no as a safety precaution?
Thanks for your help!
I then turned the fuel supply back on. The bowl filled up with fuel in about two seconds. I then went on to the two bleed screws about the fuel bowl. I opened both at the same time and fuel streamed out of the first one and trickled out of the second on. I closed the first on and then the second one started to stream. I then moved on to the bleed screw on the injector pump. Upon openning that one, I got a steady trickle of fuel. From there I moved on to the two metal lines feeding the injectors. I totally took the nut off the left one and with my extra set of hands turning the key, I watched a pulsing of fuel squirting out about every 3/4s of a second. I put that nut back on and went to the right injector line. With the nut off, I saw the same pulsing of fuel.
I replaced the nut and then turned the key switch to the left to warm the glow plugs for about 15 seconds. I then tried to start it with the fuel lever at about half. It turned over, but didn't start. I put the fuel lever at fuel throttle and the engine turned over a little faster for a moment and then back to the previous speed. All this time the exhaust is white. Thinking the battery could be a little week from all the current and past troubleshooting, I hooked my truck up with jumper cables, but got the same result.
I moved on to pulling out the glow plugs. I noticed they didn't seem warm at all. I put them mostly back in the block and connected a jumper wire directly from the positive battery terminal to the plugs and help for 15 seconds. I then took them back out of the block to find them to hot to touch and smoking with what appeared to be some "carbon" on them, but no where near red as I saw in someone's past post. Could this be caused by bad glow plugs? Is there a test that can be done on the glow plugs? I didn't notice that they do cool off fairly fast.
Someone else I discuss these issues with is persistant in telling me to pull start the tractor. If told him in the manual that it specifically says not to pull start it. Does anyone know if it is mechanically OK to pull start it and the manual is just saying no as a safety precaution?
Thanks for your help!
JC-jetro
Elite Member
Cj,
all you have done is right and as suggested with the right sequence. You have solved the fuel delivery issue. up to injector. There are couple of things that can make starting difficult from here. one being glow plug that is not heating and assisting the combustion. I have taken my glow plugs off but did not glow it directly and measured the temp. I'm out of town and can't do that for compassion. Might be able to do it next weekend. Secondly if you do not get a good spray patten from your injector it'll very difficult to start. fuel has to come atomized in to the combustion chamber to ignite by heat of compressions. If you have leaky valve or bad piston ring you may not have the compression you need. There is no issue with pull stating as long as you do it in higher gear so you will not stress out the low gear and damage to transmission. Be ready to communicate well with the driver that is pulling you and the rig and ready to pop the gear in neutral or clutch to cut power to transmisson. Make sure the throttle is in the middle when pull starting.
JC,
all you have done is right and as suggested with the right sequence. You have solved the fuel delivery issue. up to injector. There are couple of things that can make starting difficult from here. one being glow plug that is not heating and assisting the combustion. I have taken my glow plugs off but did not glow it directly and measured the temp. I'm out of town and can't do that for compassion. Might be able to do it next weekend. Secondly if you do not get a good spray patten from your injector it'll very difficult to start. fuel has to come atomized in to the combustion chamber to ignite by heat of compressions. If you have leaky valve or bad piston ring you may not have the compression you need. There is no issue with pull stating as long as you do it in higher gear so you will not stress out the low gear and damage to transmission. Be ready to communicate well with the driver that is pulling you and the rig and ready to pop the gear in neutral or clutch to cut power to transmisson. Make sure the throttle is in the middle when pull starting.
JC,
JC-jetro
Elite Member
CJ,
Professional shops use hand operated pump to build up the required pressure (2000 + psi) range to simulate injector operation inside a safe glass vessel in order to check the atomization and spray pattern. I have heard guys checked the patter against some card board. I don't have spec of the pattern size @ what distance to the card board. I'd probably look for a round and good atomization by visual inspection. Be warned that diesel at that pressure can easily puncture skin surface causing severe injuries.
JC,
Professional shops use hand operated pump to build up the required pressure (2000 + psi) range to simulate injector operation inside a safe glass vessel in order to check the atomization and spray pattern. I have heard guys checked the patter against some card board. I don't have spec of the pattern size @ what distance to the card board. I'd probably look for a round and good atomization by visual inspection. Be warned that diesel at that pressure can easily puncture skin surface causing severe injuries.
JC,
I've been trying to find a place to just order replacement injectors. I found the glow plugs at Weaver's Compact Tractor parts, but they don't list the injectors for the 1700. Anyone have any idea of another place that has them? Looking for a place locally to test the existing injectors, but if I can get some new or rebuilt ones reasonably I'd just replace them and the glow plugs. I did try pull starting it in the highest gear. The tires locked up and even turned in the reverse direction a bit when I let out the clutch. In one try it started turning the engine, but didn't start. The pull speed was just past idle of a Chevy Silverado diesel.
JC-jetro
Elite Member
Cj,
I don't have a source for Injector repair. I did actually looked up some on line sources and did not get a good hit. potentially, if injector squirt fuel in to combustion chamber rather than atomizing (spraying) would have the same result with pull starting vs starter. None of this work is easy. If I had the same situation on a 2 cylinder engine like 1700 would take a chance of taking the injector off by undoing the fuel line. I'd reconnect the injector to fuel pump off the tractor and would try to check the spray pattern in to an apple box with proper eye protection. obviously you need someone to crank the engine enough for you to see the pattern. If I get good spray pattern then would look elsewhere for the root of the problem. May be your injector is good but you have valve or ring problem not allowing proper compression of fuel air mixture leading to lack of combustion, who knows?. If the injector only squirt fuel then I might open it up and clean and inspect the components. You can go to NH website and see parts breakdown of your injector. I would make sure to soak all components in diesel fuel during the inspection, may be you have some fouling causing the bad spray pattern. take macro pics and make sure don't mix and match any of the components from 2 injectors and the orientation of components on how they went together before dis assembly.
Your best bet still would be to find a professional shop to inspect your injectors.
JC,
Look at PDF below for your injector.
I don't have a source for Injector repair. I did actually looked up some on line sources and did not get a good hit. potentially, if injector squirt fuel in to combustion chamber rather than atomizing (spraying) would have the same result with pull starting vs starter. None of this work is easy. If I had the same situation on a 2 cylinder engine like 1700 would take a chance of taking the injector off by undoing the fuel line. I'd reconnect the injector to fuel pump off the tractor and would try to check the spray pattern in to an apple box with proper eye protection. obviously you need someone to crank the engine enough for you to see the pattern. If I get good spray pattern then would look elsewhere for the root of the problem. May be your injector is good but you have valve or ring problem not allowing proper compression of fuel air mixture leading to lack of combustion, who knows?. If the injector only squirt fuel then I might open it up and clean and inspect the components. You can go to NH website and see parts breakdown of your injector. I would make sure to soak all components in diesel fuel during the inspection, may be you have some fouling causing the bad spray pattern. take macro pics and make sure don't mix and match any of the components from 2 injectors and the orientation of components on how they went together before dis assembly.
Your best bet still would be to find a professional shop to inspect your injectors.
JC,
Look at PDF below for your injector.
I am trying to understand what your problem is. Here is what I am reading, You got the tractor in August of 2013 and you have never had it running? Is that correct or am I missing something? I haven't read anything that states you have got it started. Is that correct?
The ign switch controls the glow plugs, the starter and also affects the alternator charging and the dash lights. Have you put in a new ignition switch? If not, get a new one before you spend mega bucks on a new alternator and injectors. Spend money on a switch because you are going to need one soon even if it is good today. It may cure all of your other problems. It did cure my starting problems on my 1700.
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JC-jetro
Elite Member
Ray,
1700 as you know does not have fuel solenoid kill switch. CJ should be able to pull start it no matter what the condition of switch on his rig. The only safety 1700 has is the "neutral safety switch". He can crank and turn the engine over, so neutral safety is working like it should. He just can't get it to run continously leading to speculation of fuel related issues.
JC,
1700 as you know does not have fuel solenoid kill switch. CJ should be able to pull start it no matter what the condition of switch on his rig. The only safety 1700 has is the "neutral safety switch". He can crank and turn the engine over, so neutral safety is working like it should. He just can't get it to run continously leading to speculation of fuel related issues.
JC,
Hi JC, I have never tried to pull start a diesel. I would think it would take some distance in order to build up enough compression and heat to fire the engine enough to start. My tractor doesn't have a neutral safety that I am aware of. It has a clutch switch that cuts power to the starter if the clutch isn't depressed. I don't know if that would have any effect on pull starting. It seems like CJ has covered most of the fuel problems. The key switch does power the glow plugs if it is working right. I am thinking his cold start aids are not working because of the IGN switch. Pull start would have to make enough revolutions to produce both heat and compression. That would take more than just popping the clutch. It would need to really spin the engine which would be taking a chance of damage to the drive line and/or engine.
