Ford closing Cleveland engine plant

[Builder]

Absolutely.....

So even if I show you documented proof that GM pays 4 or 5 times the benefits of Toyota NA, you still think they pay the same? uhhhhhh......OK.....whatever....

"Now theres a prime example of inept managment and a greedy union. Those costs are rediculous, it's no wonder we're not competitive.
The competing Japanese companys manage to employ and provide for their associates for their entire lifespan and yet they mange to produce dependable and affordable products.
The numbers posted shows Toyota America's cost and probably doesn't include all of Toyota manufacturing. This skewers the numbers and does not make for an apples to apples comparison. Thing is, based on Toyota's rapid rise in numbers, I would think the entire Toyota conglomerate's health care costs are much lower than GM's."

The "costs" you speak of are costs due to health care & benefits for employees and their families!
Perhaps you'd also be interested to know that toyota NA doesn't pay the same corporate tax structure as the Ford or GM plant on the same street. How do I know? Glad you asked. Foreign companies who do business in the USA but are headquartered off shore pay much lower corporate income taxes than domestic car companies headquartered in the USA.

It seems like you're drinking the Toyota koolaide pretty hard. Look into it more closely and you'll see that all those warm/fuzzy "Toyota made in the USA" commercials are done to brainwash people into thinking they're anything near what GM & Ford have given back to their employees and their families in the USA. That money goes back into our economy in the form of investments, retail purchases and health benefits.

"Not any more. The Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra are now a direct threat to our F150's and 1500's.
One thing in American truck manufacturing's favor is that we DO know how to make trucks. But the competition has upped the anti."

"upped the ante"??? How can you say that when the "Titan" isn't even available with an 8' bed???? LOL

"In big ticket vehicles I can agree. In compact and sub-compact automobiles, we still lag behind them immencely....
It's almost as if the big 3 purposely base their quality
standards on vehicles they can make a large ROI while cutting the corners on the less profitable ones.
This I've seen in my experience in buying nothing but American manufactured (and/or American branded) autos for well over 35 yrs, that is until I purchased a compact Toyota 4 yrs ago. And when I traded "up" to a larger vehicle it retained quite a bit of it's value too."

And the Japanese stink (so far) at building full size trucks. Toyota T-100???? never got more than 5% of the full size market. Howcome? Surely it can't be a lack of Toyota "quality", can it?

 

[KICK]

its hard to compare an offshore companies fixed costs against an old line american company's costs.

no doubt toyota is getting a better deal from its workers. no union, right to work states, relatively new plants and employees that aint sucking up benefits at a rate anywhere near GM or Ford have to pay.

I read somewhere that GM is the largest private welfare organization in the USA, they are taking care of several hundred thousand retired workers along with having their current obligations.

situation isn't going to correct itself any time soon either, unless those companies can go the bankruptcy route and somehow get out from under their corporate obligations.

I don't believe Japanese stuff is any better, firmly believe most of it is a myth fostered on us by mass media, and I'll keep on driving GM or ford trucks until the day I die.

cal me biased. remember Pearl Harbor.

 

[Builder]

its hard to compare an offshore companies fixed costs against an old line american company's costs.

no doubt toyota is getting a better deal from its workers. no union, right to work states, relatively new plants and employees that aint sucking up benefits at a rate anywhere near GM or Ford have to pay.

I read somewhere that GM is the largest private welfare organization in the USA, they are taking care of several hundred thousand retired workers along with having their current obligations.

situation isn't going to correct itself any time soon either, unless those companies can go the bankruptcy route and somehow get out from under their corporate obligations.

I don't believe Japanese stuff is any better, firmly believe most of it is a myth fostered on us by mass media, and I'll keep on driving GM or ford trucks until the day I die.

cal me biased. remember Pearl Harbor.

Most of that myth has been created by Consumer Reports. They've got a woody for Japanese cars like nobody's bidness.

 

[Rara Avis]

Most of that myth has been created by Consumer Reports. They've got a woody for Japanese cars like nobody's bidness.

Bump...

 

[JoeinTX]

"its hard to compare an offshore companies fixed costs against an old line american company's costs.."

Herein is one of the key's to many of America's legacy companies and their situation today. Decades of poor decisions, short-sighted management, and over-promising and under-delivering to both labor and the consumer. These are now coming home to roost in gigantic ways and bringing many of them to the brink.


"So even if I show you documented proof that GM pays 4 or 5 times the benefits of Toyota NA, you still think they pay the same? uhhhhhh......OK.....whatever...."

I think it's best to understand that Toyota can provide near-equal pay and benefits for a lot less cost to the company and ultimately the consumer in sticker prices versus the Big 2.5. In terms of value, they have driven a much more prudent and solvent business plan to success.

"The "costs" you speak of are costs due to health care & benefits for employees and their families!
Perhaps you'd also be interested to know that toyota NA doesn't pay the same corporate tax structure as the Ford or GM plant on the same street. How do I know? Glad you asked. Foreign companies who do business in the USA but are headquartered off shore pay much lower corporate income taxes than domestic car companies headquartered in the USA..."

This is not Toyota/Honda/Sony/etc's problem. Launch a campaign to reform the tax laws regarding this and see how far you get. These laws are in place to encourage outside investment..........and they've resulted in a lot of factories, dealers, and jobs now operating in the U.S.

"It seems like you're drinking the Toyota koolaide pretty hard. Look into it more closely and you'll see that all those warm/fuzzy "Toyota made in the USA" commercials are done to brainwash people into thinking they're anything near what GM & Ford have given back to their employees and their families in the USA. That money goes back into our economy in the form of investments, retail purchases and health benefits...."

It does. But, so do the salaries paid to American employees of these companies, the tax dollars paid to local/state/federal agencies, the money paid to domestic suppliers and transporters, and the money flowing their dealers and retail outlets.
No "Kool Aid" drinking occurring here.........just an unvarnished and an unemotional assessment of the situation. It would do everyone some good to seperate their emotions and take a rational look at this picture.

""upped the ante"??? How can you say that when the "Titan" isn't even available with an 8' bed???? LOL...

And the Japanese stink (so far) at building full size trucks. Toyota T-100???? never got more than 5% of the full size market. Howcome? Surely it can't be a lack of Toyota "quality", can it?..."


Uh, the Titan is now available with an 8' bed and the T-100 is nearly a 20 year old design and no where near what Toyota offers today. Be honest here.

The Titan line is expanding as we speak and Toyota's Tundra is now being aimed straight at the U.S. market........they have 3/4, 1-ton, and severe duty versions planned with Hino diesel engines.

"Most of that myth has been created by Consumer Reports. They've got a woody for Japanese cars like nobody's bidness..."

So, Consumer Reports all on its own with its weird infatuation with inferior foreign products and an anti-American agenda, has been able to turn U.S. buyers against American companies even while it being against their own personal financial interests? I think we see who is drinking the "kool-aid" here.


I work for a very large American company whose name you would instantly know should I speak it. Let me tell you a little about contemporary American management and marketing:

-Product and engineering are tied to marketing and cost. We could produce the best, but, if the cost of doing so drives the marketing and promotional costs up and over the overall target........engineering gets cut. Why? Because, in my company's view, the advertising and promotional efforts trump the ultimate product. It's about "face time" and "buzz." Make sure we get some tv time or a page in the newspaper about what our new product "could do" as opposed to making sure the product is sound and waiting to advertise.


So many foreign companies, the most successful ones, operate in the reverse. Develop a new product certain of it's abilities and with a support program in place...........and then launch. Introduce with assurance and all parts needed for success in place. Their belief, and I concure, is that if you produce a sound product then all other aspects fall into place.

It's also a matter of perspective. Traditional American industry was based upon who had the best idea, put their name on it, and stood behind it. There was an honor and self-respect involved that is now increasingly vacant among U.S. concerns while so many overseas firms grasp it. To this, you get a recall notice in the mail from GM and visit the dealer (as I've experienced)..........too often you get a run-around... or a debate as to where your insurer picks up the tab versus the company. A recall notice from Honda, as I've too personally witnessed, is met with ease and a total lack friction from the dealer.

This area of customer service is another area where the "imports" have done a wonderful job by and large.


I love the firms how do the most for the consumer and do so with the best personality. Over the last 30 or so years, foreign companies have dropped-in and made very good in-roads in this area.



Live in a denial or ignorance, but, we are truly in an international market today. Americans and consumers worldwide should have the ultimate freedom to vote with their dollars and this is what we see today. Don't decry it.......those companies who excel will win. Those who don't will not.

Nationality plays little in this.

 

[Volfandt]

So even if I show you documented proof that GM pays 4 or 5 times the benefits of Toyota NA, you still think they pay the same? uhhhhhh......OK.....whatever....

Documented proof? You compare Toyota America against GM world wide. I've already said your not compareing apples to apples.
And so what if the TRUE costs are lower for Toyota, tha tjust proves my point that GM's management was inept to agree to pay rediculously high lifetime costs to people that designed and built auto's that started to rust out before they were paid off, and with engines that wouldn't last 50k miles, and with coke cans welded into their frames so they would rattle for the life of the vehicle.....
Your proving MY point!

It seems like you're drinking the Toyota koolaide pretty hard. Look into it more closely and you'll see that all those warm/fuzzy "Toyota made in the USA" commercials are done to brainwash people into thinking they're anything near what GM & Ford have given back to their employees and their families in the USA. That money goes back into our economy in the form of investments, retail purchases and health benefits.

Tain't me that's OD'ing on koolaide.
So the non-union associates that work at the Toyota plants based within our shores and all the associated plants and their associates aren't contributing to the local economy? Hint, they are. And they're not having to support another level of beaurococy to do it.
I could give a rats-azz if the money I spend makes some fat-azzed cat richer whether he lives in Japan or the USA as neither gives a rats azz about making sure MY family is well & fed and it's not their concern anyways!, it's MINE. I DO care that American workers do make a decent wage with decent benefits and also produce a product that I'll gladly buy.

AND, you best do alittle more research and then let us know which companys ARE building large manufacturing plants IN AMERICA, which employ SKILLED highly paid craftsmen and whitecollar associates and which companys are closing their large manufacturing plants, putting large amounts of highly skilled highly paid employees out of work, AND are moving these operatings to OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!
What good did the highly compensated unions do for these folks?
Now put down your coolaide when you do this......

I have several relatives that's worked at Fisher and GM and their stories alone are enough to turn me away from buying anything less than their big ticket products.....

Live in a denial or ignorance, but, we are truly in an international market today. Americans and consumers worldwide should have the ultimate freedom to vote with their dollars and this is what we see today. Don't decry it.......those companies who excel will win. Those who don't will not.

Nationality plays little in this.

With this I can agree

 

[Builder]

Wolfvandt,

Here's some reading that might open your eyes a little while you sip some Saki flavored Kool Aide after dinner:

The Level Field Institute

Domestic Content

Level Field Institute: $83 Billion in Auto Parts Sales - and 232,000 U.S. Jobs - Could Depend on Differences in Domestic Auto Parts Content

 

[Kendall69]

Saw a report last night that kids in school are learning Chinese.
Between our colleges biulding foot bathes for the Muslims in MN., and our kids learning Chinese, Makes a mans skin crawl.

“I'm directing the Department of Education to develop model Chinese language curriculum so it's available to every school district,” Pawlenty said.

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_107231434.html

We the people talk about it, talking heads on TV and radio talk about it, but the great people of this country are too apathetic to do anything about it.

There are parts of this country ( mine area included) where NO ONE speaks English, or a business in English.

I walked into the local Walmart and in big bold print on the back of the "salesperson's " vest, it said, " How can I help you" - and she could'nt speak a lick of English. I walked up to the Manager and tore him a new one, explaining how the vest should read "Don't ask me any questions I don't understand or speak English."

 

[Builder]

Uh, the Titan is now available with an 8' bed and the T-100 is nearly a 20 year old design and no where near what Toyota offers today. Be honest here.

Better read your facts, bro. It ain't available with a crewcab and an 8' bed:

2008 Nissan Titan Crew Cab Specifications - Nissan USA

"The Titan line is expanding as we speak and Toyota's Tundra is now being aimed straight at the U.S. market........they have 3/4, 1-ton, and severe duty versions planned with Hino diesel engines. "

Big deal. "severe duty"....whhhooooooo.....Look out!!! We're in trouble now!!! Anyone knows the competition will only make Ford & GM better.

"So, Consumer Reports all on its own with its weird infatuation with inferior foreign products and an anti-American agenda, has been able to turn U.S. buyers against American companies even while it being against their own personal financial interests? I think we see who is drinking the "kool-aid" here."

Ever take the time to read a C/R truck comparison??? I'm coming from the viewpoint of a guy who uses a truck for its' intended purpose, like plowing snow, utility body & lumber racks, driving across jobsites, etc.? C/R tests are more concerned with how many kids fit in the back seat, fuel mileage and number of cupholders. Great for you soccer moms. Meaningless for me.

"I work for a very large American company whose name you would instantly know should I speak it. Let me tell you a little about contemporary American management and marketing:

-Product and engineering are tied to marketing and cost. We could produce the best, but, if the cost of doing so drives the marketing and promotional costs up and over the overall target........engineering gets cut. Why? Because, in my company's view, the advertising and promotional efforts trump the ultimate product. It's about "face time" and "buzz." Make sure we get some tv time or a page in the newspaper about what our new product "could do" as opposed to making sure the product is sound and waiting to advertise."

Last time I checked, accounting, budgets and advertising were part of business culture....in America and Japan. I see plenty of blingy Nissan Titan ads during football games, too ya know.

"So many foreign companies, the most successful ones, operate in the reverse. Develop a new product certain of it's abilities and with a support program in place...........and then launch. Introduce with assurance and all parts needed for success in place. Their belief, and I concure, is that if you produce a sound product then all other aspects fall into place.

It's also a matter of perspective. Traditional American industry was based upon who had the best idea, put their name on it, and stood behind it. There was an honor and self-respect involved that is now increasingly vacant among U.S. concerns while so many overseas firms grasp it. To this, you get a recall notice in the mail from GM and visit the dealer (as I've experienced)..........too often you get a run-around... or a debate as to where your insurer picks up the tab versus the company. A recall notice from Honda, as I've too personally witnessed, is met with ease and a total lack friction from the dealer.

This area of customer service is another area where the "imports" have done a wonderful job by and large.
"

We owned one foreign car. At my wife's insistance, we bought a '99 Nissan pathfinder. We had nothing but problems, the dealer was a thief, and it brought us terrible resale value. But what do I know....I'm just another owner, the guy that had to fix the **** thing. But C/R said it was great, so we bought it and C/R "knows everything".....riiiiightt

BTW: Nissan was teetering on bankruptcy ~9 years ago, renault bailed them out....hmmmmm, must have been too much Nissan "quality" huh???

"Live in a denial or ignorance, but, we are truly in an international market today. Americans and consumers worldwide should have the ultimate freedom to vote with their dollars and this is what we see today. Don't decry it.......those companies who excel will win. Those who don't will not.

Nationality plays little in this.

yep, great country we live in, isn't it? It's great that we keep democracy alive in the world. Good thing we defeated that country in WW II .....who was it again?????? Oh yeah, JAPAN......or we might be all buying Toyotas & hondas, isn't that right?

 

[KICK]

Most of that myth has been created by Consumer Reports. They've got a woody for Japanese cars like nobody's bidness.

you and me may not agree on International vs. GM but we agree on that.

CR never met a foreign product it didn't like.

I bet they dont drink Bud either. LOL.