Foton 254 starting problem

[succor]

Hey everyone, haven't been on here in a while. Foton 254 has been running good till lately. About a week ago was moving alot of snow on a warm day, shut the tractor off, it got really cold now about -20 F or - 35 up here in Saskatchewan canada. I went to start the tractor to move more snow, plugged in for a while with glow plugs so good to go but only a click from the starter. I thought maybe water from the warm day froze the starter, so I put some warm water slowly around the cast of the starter, gave it a couple of wraps, waited an than it started but a slower crank because of cold weather. A couple of days later, same thing, but no start. The best I can get is like a clicking grinding noise from the starter. It sounds like the solenoid is firing but with this grinding noise? The problem is that it is darn cold here to work on it but thinking maybe I should pull that starter off? I've heard of problems with the clutch switch but it seems to be working when I push the clutch in. When it's out there is nothing to the starter. I tried the screwdriver on starter trick but it sparks, that's it. I go across the big terminal on the solenoid to the little terminal on the starter it that's correct. I know in the summer I fixed up the ground from the battery to the frame as well. However lights do dim and voltage drops down to 9 or 10 volts when trying so that may be a possibility? Any thoughts would be great as this forum is great!

Cory

 

[RonMar]

Could be a battery, batteries don't do as well in the cold, and you are talking pretty low temps. Large terminal to small terminal with a screwdriver does the same as the key does, engages the solenoid, which closes contacts and sends high current to the starter motor to turn it. Large terminal to large terminal bypasses the solenoid and sends high current right to the starter motor.

What is the voltage at the battery terminals after you start it, and with engine at say 1800RPM? What is it under these same conditions with the lights turned on? These things have a puny alternator. If you are not runining it much, and have the lights all on, it may not be putting enough energy back into the battery in your cold climate. Quick checks would be to put the battery on a charger for a while before you try and start it, or jumpstart the tractor from a running vehicle... If it starts Ok when you do these things, the battery or charging system is most likley at fault. If not, then starter and wiring would be suspect.

 

[succor]

Thanks for the input, just giving an update. Did the jump across the 2 big terminals and it's the starter which gave me that whirring/ rattle noise so I took it out and have it apart, other than dirt, grease and a bit of ice, nothing looks broken. I'll clean it up and try again. As for the alternator, it's a new OEM one because my original failed. I looked at a delco alternator and it doesn't look like it will directly fit in there but with mods I could do this. As for the battery, yeh, on my larger tractor (backup) I can easily swap batteries to ease the starting. I can't get the battery out with a loader on with this tractor. I'm going to put the charger on and I may assist with the boost function as well to start. The output is small in this cold weather.

Cory

 

[succor]

Ok everyone, got the starter apart cleaned up and back together. Had a spare battery and jump started the started and it spins fine. Although it's not back in the tractor yet, I'm 99% sure I fixed it. The plunger in the solenoid was frozen solid with water because alot leaked out as it was thawing. At first it didn't move, now it does. I'm sealing up all the joints as I put it back together because water can easily seep into the solenoid area and starter to happily freeze! I haven't tested the solenoid yet but I will try that as well to make sure it's moving freely.

Cory

 

[RonMar]

The chinese "Yak Fat" they use for grease is probably also like concrete below freezing putting some better grease in there will also probably work wonders.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Lubri-Plate white grease is less prone to moisture emulsification.

I guess I should qualify my post.

Use Lubri-Plate on starter motor bearings and solenoid linkage.
Use a dry lubricant on the solenoid plunger such as Moly-Kote or graphite such as Lock-Eze, mostly because we all know what happens to grease when it gets cold and we also know that grease attracts dust and dirt - like a magnet.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I am with the others here and think its a lube issue with the grease they us in the starter.

Chris

 

[greg_g]

But just to rule out a voltage issue, grab a friend and a digital multimeter. Set the multimeter to read DC volts. Place the + lead on the solenoid post to which the wire from the keyswitch is attached. Ground the - lead. At this point, the meter should read zero. Then have a friend crank the engine. Note the voltage. If it's above 10v, you're ok. Between 9-10 volts suggests the beginning of a problem. Below 9v, you need to track down the cause for the voltage loss.

But let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it. First order of business is to verify the starting voltage from the keyswitch.

//greg//

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, The starter is cleaned and lubed properly, tested it with a spare battery on the bench and works fine. Gear is back and forth and spins great. Had to melt a bit of ice on the flywheel as well so the gears can hopefully mesh back up. Next issue is of course is what Greg is mentioning about the small wire on the starter. With this cold weather, I may have broke that wire putting it back on because no click with the key, could also be a weak battery. I'm also charging the battery to get it back up to proper operation. Still minus 20C wind chill -30C, that's around -25F. **** cold!!

 

[succor]

OK, I think I'm doing this right. This is using another good battery. When you jump the starter with the screw driver to bypass the key etc; do you first actuate the solenoid(big nut to small nut on solenoid) than the starter(big nut to big nut) while holding the solenoid on? If so, than the starter seems to be toast even though it checked out on the bench but with no load of course. When I fire the soloid, it's moving. When I power the starter it spins. Only other thing is if the gears were not lining up but with numerous tries it should mesh together. Darn cold weather sure slows down the progress. Worse thing to happen is the starter fails when it's extremely cold and you got to fix the problem outside!

 

[Diamondpilot]

On your starter solenoid there should be 3 nuts for electrical connections. One is the larger wire from the battery to the solenoid. The next is a metal bar that runs from the solenoid to the starter motor body. The final is the small nut that has the small wire running from the key switch.

To bypass the key switch all you should have to do is jump with a screwdriver from the large nut with the wire running from the battery to the small nut with the wire running from the key switch. It should then spin and start if all is ok.

If not you have a solenoid problem, not a starter issue. Remember, your starter has the solenoid on it. Its job is to make a electrical contact to spin the starter and to also engage the small gear on the starter to the flywheel so it can spin the engine over.

Chris

 

[succor]

Ok got you! I did that and all there is is the click... but no spin; even with a fresh battery! When I tested the starter on the bench it spun fast with no load but a bit noisy inside. Don't know what a good starter should sound like when it's spinning. Can the solenoid be taken apart completely to inspect? I can't seem to separate the solenoid even when I loosen the terminals on it. It feels like there is a spring holding it together. Sorry, not much of an expert with starters but I'm learning quick.

 

[succor]

I put the starter on the bench and it locked the solenoid and spun really fast but again with no load. Sounds like it's working but in the tractor it just clicks. Might just go ahead and get a new starter and try it.

Cory

 

[Rich Waugh]

First I'd suggest you take it to your local starter/alternator repair shop and have them check it out on their load bench. Cheaper than a new starter.

 

[RonMar]

Way cheaper

If on the bench, you are hooking +12 to the large terminal on the solenoid, and - to the case, and applying +12 to the small solenoid terminal, and the solenoid is engaging and spinning the starter, it is probably OK. A couple of things may be happening when installed though.

1. In order for the solenoid to close the large contacts(up at the front where + terminal attaches) and spin the motor, the solenoid must fully engage. The other end of the solenoid pulls a lever that forces the drive gear back to mesh with the flywheel ring gear. The teeth on the drive gear and the teeth on the ring gear are beveled to a point to help the drive gear fully mesh into the ring gear. If something is preventing this from happening, the solenoid will just click as it cannot fully engage to close the big contacts and spin the motor. Could something be preventing the gears from fully meshing? Didn't you mentioned ice in/on the ring gear earlier?

2. The solenoid is not receiving enough current to pull against the drag of the meshing gears and close the large contacts. Bad battery, connection or cable.

3. The commutator and brushes inside the motor are worn/damaged. They connect good enough to spin the motor with no load, but fail under the load of trying to crank the engine. A starter/electrical motor shop should be able to tell you this pretty quickly.

How were you testing it on the bench, battery and jumper cables? If it were me, I would take that same setup out to the tractor and "bench test" it in place...

 

[succor]

I took the starter to a reputable shop who has repaired Jinma starters and they basically tested it the way I do, except the only difference is they jam a block of wood into the gear to add some torque, It seemed to have reasonable torque as it chewed the wood up and they said it is PROBABLY fine? But they weren't 100 % sure. I'm dropping to about 10.5 volts to start which is good but still a click. There was ice on the ring gear but I used a hair dryer and screwdriver to remove all that I could see. I left the started semi tight when mounting it to see if I could move it slightly to engage it, nothing. You can see a bit of wear on the ring gear where I was spinning the starter but not engaging the solenoid because I was trying to do the hit and miss theory of getting the gears to line up?? The guys at the repair shop don't have the parts to fix this starter anyways. I guess I'll have to try a new starter, don't know what else to do??

Cory

 

[Gene :^)]

Are you sure the motor is not hydro-locked or stuck for some reason? Do you have a de-compression lever? Can you make sure the motor is not locked up (maybe a screw driver to the ring gear).

Gene :^)

 

[Affordable]

I would also check to make sure you can turn the engine over,if the starter shop tested the starter and is pretty confident it's ok,check the engine if it spins over with a screwdriver or bar if it does then buy a starter if not keep looking.

I have seen the flywheel housing loosen up,and the rear main seal bind against the crankshaft to where the motor would act like it was locked up

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[Diamondpilot]

I also wonder how the starter acts when cold? You have it in the shop its warm. Try a heat gun on the starter and get it hot then try to start it. The heavy grease in them can bind stuff up in the cold.

I would also try taking a pair of jumper cables from the battery or better yet a second battery directly to the starter. From you truck to the starter would be best with the truck running. Hook the red cable to the solenoid post where the batter normally hooks up and then the black to the base of the starter where the bolts go to the flywheel housing. This will bypass all the wires coming from the battery. Maybe you have a bad battery cable somewhere???? Will not cost you a dime, just some time.

Chris

 

[Rich Waugh]

I'd definitely recommend you determine first if the engine will roll over by levering the flywheel or turning the crank nut with a wrench. NOTE: have the fuel cut-off clamped open and the compression release also open so you don't experience an unexpected engine start! You mentioned ice on the ring gear so there may be ice in the bottom of the clutch housing that is keeping the motor from turning over, or the bearing issue Tommy mentioned. Whatever, you have to know the engine CAN turn over before you blame the starter for the problem. The bench test sounds like the starter is fine to me.

If you do decide to replace the starter, check out the newer model starter with reduction gearing. Supposed to be much better than the old model. But determine first that you truly NEED a starter. I'm not yet convinced that you do.