Fuel Boycott on the 19th !!

[Alan L.]

What will have to happen is what happens in any capitalist society. You and I will have to realize that the market will decide the issue for us, the government can't and shouldn't control it. If we don't like the price of oil then stop buying so much of it, one way or the other.

Right now, its still cheaper to pay the high gas prices than to pay the price for cars that have alternative fuel sources. This means gas is still not expensive enough. When it gets high enough, fuel cell and solar power will then become economically feasible, more people will go to it, and then you will see the savings from mass production, and eventually we will all be using this alternative energy at no more cost than our old cheap gas.

Maybe we'll all be better off in the long run when these gas prices reach this point.

 

[fivestring]

Garry, is this the granddaughter you haven't seen in a few months?
My granddaughter is now 10 days old!

 

[Golfgar4]

No, Gary. She's our daughter. She turns 31 this Sunday, so we decided to go visit her for the weekend. We were getting the feeling that she was feeling a little "isolated" from all of the activity of her niece (our grandaughter) being born. She wasn't able to be a part of that, and she still hasn't even seen Teagan yet, other than in pictures. She would never say anything, but we just felt that we needed to show her how much we love her too! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The daughter-in-law and grandaughter will be coming for a 12 day visit in July. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Can't wait for that! Our son can't break loose during that time, and since he'll be pulling night duty during that time period, he suggested that his wife and daughter go home for a visit and then stop by with us. I thought that was a very mature and caring thing for him to do for his wife and daughter! A far cry from how he handled things a few years ago! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Garry . . . by the way, I presume you'll be taking 294 around Chicago or 94 through it and passing a few miles from me. If you have time and want to detour south on 394 for about 20 miles you can stop in and play with my toys . . . but the M-I-L stays in the car because she might have actually seen my crack about using her as a bug deflector!

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but the M-I-L stays in the car because she might have actually seen my crack about using her as a bug deflector!
)</font>

Like I said, I won't mention that to her. And she never visits TBN on the computer. I don't think she gets anything on it besides E-bay! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Thanks for the invite, Bob. I hope you realize how much I would love to take you up on that! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But whenever we go to Columbus, we've gotten in the habit of getting on I-39 and heading due south until we cut over toward Indianapolis. It obviously has less traffic and no tolls after Rockford. We've also found that in the broad scheme of things, it really doesn't add enough time to the trip to make any appreciable difference. I'll gladly give up the few extra minutes of travel time to avoid driving through Chicago!

I will, however, take a raincheck on that offer! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif There have been a number of times when I've had to come down to the Windy City by myself. I always allow extra time, just because you never know what may happen. Why, one time, I got kidnapped and was forced to play golf down there with some nefarious insurance people! I'm lucky to have survived that encounter! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

The offer will be left open for you.

And I trust those insurance guys didn't leave any scars on you when you woke up from that abduction? Come to think of it, was that X-FILES episode I saw about you? They claimed it was NOT based on any real events, but we all know better!

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And I trust those insurance guys didn't leave any scars on you when you woke up from that abduction? )</font>

None that show! Only in the wallet and the ego! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Libertine]

fivestring:

<font color="blue">Interesting angle. </font>

Ah well. As I said, I'm not much for "conspiracy" theories-most "conspiracies" are little more than people who co-operate for what they see as mutual benefit.

Actually, this thread has deteriorated somewhat . . .

For example, some seem to actually believe "war" helps an economy, such as WWII actually improving the economy. Apparently, they forget that work, for the mere idea of work, is worthless to make the economy stronger. The purpose of work is to create things that make our life better, easier or whatever. In a war, such as WWII, a huge percentage of the work (i.e. products created) are war material. These are either destroyed, or, at the least little servicable. From an economic standpoint, it is like making people work hard, digging a hole in the ground that they then cover up. The hole has little economic use. The fact they are get "paid" in money doesn't make them better off, since what they produced (and the "value" behind the money) was blown up. That is why most the money they earned during the war reduces rapidly in what they can buy afterwards. Look at the exchange value of their money (so called prices) after WWII. Why? Because all that work generated "dollars" with nothing behind them but blown up material.

Groan. I wish people would learn to think in objects, in reality, rather than words and make believe symbols (dollars, prices, etc.) A "price" of something is NOT its dollar level, but rather what other goods it exchanges for. Or, how many hours, net, do you have to work to obtain it. That is the REAL price. If you can think in reality, you would find real price levels have changed little when measured against other real things. For example, chart the relationship between the retail price of a gallon of gas against the retail price of a loaf of bread over the years. It is only your government's money that has gone down, and down, and down, and, like all schemes like this in history, will end up as zero. This causes the ignorant to think the "prices" are going up. Groan.

I will make a prediction for all you high priced gas folks. The price of gas/heating oil/karosene/lubricating oil/insecticides (one barrel oil = approximately 20 gallons of gas, 12 gallons of heating oil (& diesel), 10 gallons of grease (& heavier residuals) etc will FALL over the next 12 to 18 months. It is currently around 11-12 barrels = 1 ounce of gold. It will fall to 15-16 barrels per ounce. What it will be in make believe debt dollars I have no idea. But in REAL terms (you guys have heard of reality havn't you?) it will fall.

JEH

 

[OkeeDon]

<font color="blue">This causes the ignorant to think the "prices" are going up. Groan.</font>

That was a nice piece of analysis and explanation of an economic truth, and I agree with it completely.

In the abstract. As it applies to a collective entity.

But, that collective entity consists of smaller groups, and ultimately individuals. and those smaller groups don't always share equally in the abstract concept. Some are affected differently. For example, as the "price" of something goes up, in whatever terms you describe it, if you share in the situation by receiving a corresponding increase in income, then the truth is as you say. But, if you as an individual, or your group, does not share in the increase on both sides of the equation, then you may perceive it differently. It does not necessarily mean you are ignorant, just that you have a different perspective.

As just one example, if one was a CEO of a large corporation, and one's salary and bonuses had increased from, say, 10 times the average worker in the company to 100 times, or even 1000 times, that average, then prices will have seemed to go down. If one participates at a corresponding level, then prices would seem to stay the same, as you describe. But, if one is a retiree of that company, or worse, a retiree stockholder in that company, then surely prices will seem to have gone up -- perhaps a large amount!

Under the current economy, fewer people are participating at or above the levels in which prices or costs are rising, in whatever terms. Thus, to more and more people, prices are indeed rising. The only thing ignorant about this is that they let it continue to happen.

 

[Libertine]

OkeeDon:

<font color="blue">That was a nice piece of analysis and explanation of an economic truth, and I agree with it completely. </font>

Thank you.

<font color="blue">Under the current economy, fewer people are participating at or above the levels in which prices or costs are rising, in whatever terms. </font>

Obviously. Actually for some groups they have been declining for nearly 100 years! For many working people they have been declining since the 1960s. And that's the point of my prior post on the nature of debt money. In order to maintain the debt pyramid i.e. a money supply sufficient to maintain a given volume of trade at a given price level and velocity, more and more of the "wealth" (things) have to be given up. Or, put another way, the standard of living HAS to be forced down. And, indeed, it has been and will continue to be. The details (i.e. your comments about various individuals who are the reality of the world) of how, who gets hurt most, etc. will vary with the situation, as you said. But, on balance, the overall standard of living (how many hours work for what you can get) is declining.

I find it amazing to look at real vs real statistics. Let me give a specific example that comes to mind. In 1900 Walter Chrysler was a 25 year old journeyman machinist living (if memory serves) in Iowa. On his earnings he supported a family and had a house. It took him 17 hours to earn a good, lined, three piece wool suit. How many man hours labor (net) does someone at the same age in the same occupation have to labor today to earn the same suit (no difference, other than style)? In spite of the vast increase in productivty (output per hour) nearly the same amount. So, where is all that productivity going? Well, one thing, calculate the percentage of people who actually produce something (or directly contribute to the productive process) and you will find it has been going down and down and down as a percentage of the whole. Or, put more simply, more and more people are eating without putting anything into the productive process. In my own case, the government sends me statements saying I can go on welfare next year (and start ripping off the younger people-just like I was ripped off). Is it any wonder the standard of living has to go down? The monetary system of debt money makes it easier to hide from the average person.

However, it is possible for a person to use these ideas to at least see where they are-for example, you can convert your net worth position to gold every year when you do an end of year balance sheet. How many ounces are you worth this year vs last year. You can use these concepts in making buying decisions-for example, by converting current prices to gold and then comparing that with historical prices. I have a chart (which I have never gotten around to posting here) on tractor prices going back to the 1920s. One of my interesting books is Chronicon Preciosum (published 1745) documenting wages/prices (including commodities such as wheat) going back 600 years previously (in England). By converting the ever depreciating coin into grams, you can get a chart of the "price" of whatever stretching over centuries.

My conclusion is that roughly 60-70% of all the wealth that is created in the US is looted from those who produced it and given to those who did not. (I will not attempt to provide the statistical support for that, except to say I have done a lot of examination of this issue including comparison of prices against productivity increases. Some items - Limouge china comes to mind - are much more expensive because there has been much less productivity increase. On the other hand wheat is much less expensive- the productivity increases have outpaced the looting). The system of debt money makes it easier to hide, that's all. And, like all ponzi type schemes it will come crashing down one way or the other. It's mathematically certain. I rather hope it will last for the rest of my life, but, sometimes I wonder if it will.

Anyway, tale care

JEH