Fuel pump issue

[CoyPatton]

Ok, it appears I have the wrong idea of how this is supposed to work. I just happened to locate a youtube video of this engine being rebuilt, which also explains that if you turn the engine over without the fuel pump mounted "you are screwed"
3.9 Perkins 4-cyl Final Assembly | Massey Ferguson 270 [EP4] - YouTube

So I guess I have to re-set the fuel pump timing to the engine.
According to the manual of the engine - that is done by:
- position the crankshaft so that no.1 piston is at tdc on compression stroke
- in the inspection window on the fuel pump, letter C should be aligned with circlip in the fuel pump

And if they are not aligned, I guess I will have to remove the timing case cover, and reposition the idler gear and fuel pump gear until everything lines up.
Does that sound reasonable ?

My suggestion from early on was it sounded out of time. My recommendation has been to follow the service procedure for timing the pump and the engine.
If what you describe is the service manual procedure, follow it!

 

[CoyPatton]

I guess you still haven't explained well enough. :laughing: What, exactly, does "The engine turned with a pump that was broken internally..." mean? To me, that means the engine was turning and the pump wasn't.

If the pump shaft was broken, as you indicated, the timing for the pump is off and can't possibly match the engine timing except by a miracle.

Which cylinder is on the intake stroke right now? Which injector would be fed right now? I bet you can't answer those two questions.

!

 

[CoyPatton]

View attachment 678678
They say a picture is worth a thousand words - this is the broken pump head from the pump - it has been replaced with a new pump head. So most of the broken pump was still rotating, up to the broken axle, and more importantly, the pump gear, that is in time with the engine was still rotating.

There are no timing adjustments on this type of pump - when assembling, all gears have one double tooth, so they only go on one way, so there is no way to assemble the pump "out of time".

Here is a video of someone replacing a pump of the same model as mine: Replacing a Ford 3000 Injection Pump - YouTube as you can see in the video, no adjustment of timing on a replacement pump is necessary.

The engine timing is controlled by the timing gear that hopefully is still timed the same way with the engine. So no, I cannot answer your two questions, and i believe that I do not have to be able to do so.

So it is in time and runs perfectly? You are go to go!

If all of that statement is in error, then you have an issue. The simplest explanation is that when cylinder 1 needs fuel, your pump is injecting fuel to cylinder 3 (180 degrees out of time). The problem here is that cylinder 3 needs fuel that has just been compressed and now is ready to burn that fuel.
So it is in my opinion entirely possible that you have the engine and the pump out of time with one another. If what I state above is happening your engine may on occasion try to fire, but every cylinder gets the needed fuel at the wring point in the process, it just never catches.
Get a service manual and follow its procedure for reinstalling an injector pump.

 

[WranglerX]

And that would be for which cylinder? And which injector will get the juice? That can't be determined by what is shown in the photos. You didn't read the whole problem.

In my world of engines timing has always been TDC of compression stroke of cylinder #1....

IN my understanding of engines its a 720 degree cycle and there are two TDC in Otto cycle engines either #1 is top is TDC on compression or TDC of exhaust stroke....

The funny part of all this is if the cam drives the fuel pump and cam is driven off the crankshaft by either gears or chain the cam timing never changed, if the cam timing never changed and pump can only index one way to cam, how can pump timing be off..... If injectors not getting fuel there has got to be problem with new or rebuilt pump, for some reason the new pump is either not delivering the fuel (not primed) or maybe injectors are clogged with garbage (grindings) for broke shaft....

Dale

 

[Tinhack]

The OP said the shaft INSIDE the pump was broken. That means the engine was turning and the pump wasn't. The pump can't possibly be in time when that happens no mater where the pin/slot may be. The shaft may be keyed and he lucked out or it may be a spline. I'm thinking it's a spline. If it is then the distributor plate (pump timing) could be off 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270 or 315 degrees if the shaft is an 8-spline shaft. It sounds to me the OP reassembled the pump with a new shaft without regard to where the distributor plate was timed. Otherwise, his engine would have started.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that. :confused3:

 

[Kaltoft]

The OP said the shaft INSIDE the pump was broken. That means the engine was turning and the pump wasn't. The pump can't possibly be in time when that happens no mater where the pin/slot may be. The shaft may be keyed and he lucked out or it may be a spline. I'm thinking it's a spline. If it is then the distributor plate (pump timing) could be off 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270 or 315 degrees if the shaft is an 8-spline shaft. It sounds to me the OP reassembled the pump with a new shaft without regard to where the distributor plate was timed. Otherwise, his engine would have started.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that. :confused3:

As I explained earlier, the pump was turning, just not the parts that delivers fuel, the shaft is splined, where one spline is a double, so it cannot be installed wrong - see picture of similar pump head.
So in my opinion I installed it WITH regard to where the distributor plate was timed, and that is why I don't understand why it could be out of time.

 

[Loaderman22]

View attachment 678747
As I explained earlier, the pump was turning, just not the parts that delivers fuel, the shaft is splined, where one spline is a double, so it cannot be installed wrong - see picture of similar pump head.
So in my opinion I installed it WITH regard to where the distributor plate was timed, and that is why I don't understand why it could be out of time.

Didn't someone say that the pump has to rotate twice for every one rotation of the engine? Maybe the pump is on the pin correctly, but the engine is in the exhaust stroke when it needs to be on the intake??? Wouldn't that mean, the pins line up, it's just on the wrong TDC?

 

[Tinhack]

Ok, so it is keyed and you lucked out.

 

[Tinhack]

Didn't someone say that the pump has to rotate twice for every one rotation of the engine? Maybe the pump is on the pin correctly, but the engine is in the exhaust stroke when it needs to be on the intake??? Wouldn't that mean, the pins line up, it's just on the wrong TDC?

I believe I said the camshaft turns once for every two rotations of the crankshaft. That's how 4-stroke engines handle valve timing. I also suspect the injector pump is supplying fuel at the wrong time or to the wrong cylinder.

 

[Kaltoft]

This is the part in the repair manual that mentions injection pump removal / installation


So basically, the pump shaft should be in alignment with the dowel pin, and the timing marks should line up again. It makes no mention of any other timing adjustment being needed - It does not mention any risk of mounting the pump 180 degrees out of time, so I would not expect that it was possible to do that since it is not mentioned in the repair manual.

So, again, the only reasonable explanation I can think of, would be if the forces that broke the internals of the pump also made the pump timing gear skip one or more teeth.

So I guess I have to remove the valve cover, and rotate the engine to TDC on cylinder 1 compression stroke, and verify if the letter "C" in the fuel pump inspection window is in alignment (this is from the manual)
If not, that would verify that the engine and pump are out of time, and I have to disassemble the engine further to get access to the timing case and adjust the timing gears.

 

[WranglerX]

Didn't someone say that the pump has to rotate twice for every one rotation of the engine? Maybe the pump is on the pin correctly, but the engine is in the exhaust stroke when it needs to be on the intake??? Wouldn't that mean, the pins line up, it's just on the wrong TDC?

IF fuel pump is driven off cam its probable 1 revolution of pump for every 2 revolutions of crank.... I believe this engine is typically a 4 cycle so it is a 720° engine cycle and pump only needs to deliver fuel on intake stroke which is one of the four (180°) cycles of engine ....

Dale

 

[WranglerX]

This is the part in the repair manual that mentions injection pump removal / installation
View attachment 678767

So basically, the pump shaft should be in alignment with the dowel pin, and the timing marks should line up again. It makes no mention of any other timing adjustment being needed - It does not mention any risk of mounting the pump 180 degrees out of time, so I would not expect that it was possible to do that since it is not mentioned in the repair manual.

So, again, the only reasonable explanation I can think of, would be if the forces that broke the internals of the pump also made the pump timing gear skip one or more teeth.

So I guess I have to remove the valve cover, and rotate the engine to TDC on cylinder 1 compression stroke, and verify if the letter "C" in the fuel pump inspection window is in alignment (this is from the manual)
If not, that would verify that the engine and pump are out of time, and I have to disassemble the engine further to get access to the timing case and adjust the timing gears.

Kind of in back of my mind but did not to want to mention it....

Dale

 

[CoyPatton]

IF fuel pump is driven off cam its probable 1 revolution of pump for every 2 revolutions of crank.... I believe this engine is typically a 4 cycle so it is a 720° engine cycle and pump only needs to deliver fuel on intake stroke which is one of the four (180°) cycles of engine ....

Dale

Dale has done a much greater job of explaining the details of the pump and engine rotation explanation.
In my 1st comment, I stated it sounded as though the engine and pump are 180 degrees out of time with one another.
This would mean instead of fuel being delivered to each cylinder shortly prior to the compression stroke (4 stroke engine which I am 99.9% sure this is) fuel is delivered shortly before the exhaust stroke.
My suggestion remains to retime everything according to the procedure as printed in a service/repair manual for the tractor.
If as others have indicated the cam turns 1x for every 2x of the crankshaft, out of time is possible with alignment of the cam and pump.
If you want to not follow the service manual procedure, pull the pump, rotate the engine 1 full turn of the cam shaft, reinstall pump, bleed fuel lines from tank to injectors, try starting engine. Since you do not know where the pump timing is located, it may take several tries to find the correct timing alignment.
Seems simpler to find timing procedure for pump install and follow it.

 

[Tinhack]

If not, that would verify that the engine and pump are out of time, and I have to disassemble the engine further to get access to the timing case and adjust the timing gears.

NO! NO! NO! Do NOT change anything on the engine side or you'll be in deep shmit! The engine timing is fine. You need to match the pump to the engine.

I'd pull the injectors so you can turn the engine over manually. You may have to turn the engine over 2-3 times to verify #1 TDC is entering the power stroke (both valves closed). It can be at TDC twice during a cycle. I'd also attach the injectors to the lines so you can see which one is "firing" and when. When number one is coming up to TDC, number two injector should be firing since #2 should be on it's intake stroke. (I'm assuming the firing order is 1,2,3,4.)

Injectors are not spark plugs. They are more like individual carburetors. They need to spray during the intake stroke. Spraying at TDC on the power stroke won't do anybody any good. It's too late then.

 

[jaydee325]

The fuel injection event in each cylinder of a diesel engine typically occurs 15 to 20 degrees before top dead center of the compression stroke.

 

[Tinhack]

Ok, my mistake. So the air charge is already there and the fuel is injected during compression. That still makes #2 the cylinder of interest when #1 is at TDC. (The injector event already occurred on #1.)

You could just as well start at #4 TDC and watch for #1 injection event. But you need to know where you are--Engine and pump.

 

[Kaltoft]

NO! NO! NO! Do NOT change anything on the engine side or you'll be in deep shmit! The engine timing is fine. You need to match the pump to the engine.

And as far as I can tell, that is done in the engine timing case by making sure that the camshaft, idler, crank, and injection pump gears all align on their timing marks. You cannot adjust the timing on the pump.

 

[jaydee325]

In a 4 cylinder engine the usual firing order is 1-3-4-2. What that means is cylinders 1 and 4 are paired cylinders. Also, 3 and 2 are paired cylinders. So, when for example, #1 is at TDC of compression stroke, 4 is at TDC of exhaust stroke.

The paired cylinders can be used to assist in timing a 4 stroke engine. All you have to do is remove the valve cover, rotate the crank and observe when cylinder #4 valves "rock". Rock means you will observe the exhaust valve closing as the intake valve opens (rocker arms "rock"). Cylinders 1 and 4 will each be at TDC with #1 at TDC compression. At this point you can get exact with what ever means is available as far as engine timing marks (front balancer or front pulley etc). Now you can set the fuel injection pump at its timing marks for #1 injection event. This will be covered by the manual that hopefully you have since this will outline where the timing marks are located and what orientation they are required to be.

If you don't have a manual, you should get one. This should be fairly easy since this engine has been around since the early 60's.

 

[WranglerX]

The fuel injection event in each cylinder of a diesel engine typically occurs 15 to 20 degrees before top dead center of the compression stroke.

Yeah but close enough to TDC on compression stroke to be valid in discussion...

And on a gas engine ignition timing can be anywhere form 7.5 to 30 Degrees BTDC ...

Really only difference is instead of ignition event is initialized by sparkplug on gas engine ands in diesel ignition event is initialized by the injection of fuel...

Dale

 

[WranglerX]

People stop to consider, the pump engagement pin on engine can only fit one way on pump, impossible to get it out of time.... The splines on pump drive are also keyed to pump shaft so it only goes on one way.... By the shear nature of the mechanics the pump can not possible be assembled on engine out of time (except for a few degrees at mount) ....

IF the above is not true, the pictures are lying to all of us.... Don't believe the problem is "timing"..... believe something else is askew here....

Maybe the gearing inside engine case has jumped a few teeth, maybe cam drive is a few teeth off, but then it would not run good with starting fluid down air intake....

Are we actually sure the pump is delivering fuel to injectors (at any time in engine cycles)? Is it possible the brand new or rebuilt pump is defective?

Dale