Fuel pump issue

[Kaltoft]

Are we actually sure the pump is delivering fuel to injectors (at any time in engine cycles)? Is it possible the brand new or rebuilt pump is defective?
Dale

Before mounting the repaired pump, I poured diesel into the intake while spinning the drive gear by hand, and diesel was pumped out of all 4 ports, and In my attempts to bleed out the lines at the injectors, I saw diesel pouring from all 4 injector lines when they were cracked open and the starter was running, so I would say that it appears that it is a timing issue.

But as far as I can tell, in this situation the pump could only be out of time if the timing gears have skipped, which is not all that implausible given how the pump broke.

 

[Kaltoft]

I have just had the valve cover off, and rotated the engine to TDC cyl. 1 compression stroke, TDC marks on engine pulley aligns with TDC bolt.
I then removed the inspection cover on the injection pump, and the scribed line next to the letter C was in alignment with the circlip.

So the injection pump IS apparently timed correctly with the engine.

So I guess I am back to square one...

When attempting to start the engine fuel is flowing to the injectors, and after 5-10 seconds of running on the starter white smoke is coming out of the exhaust pipe, so unburnt fuel is being exhausted.
No cylinders are firing at all.

 

[WranglerX]

I have just had the valve cover off, and rotated the engine to TDC cyl. 1 compression stroke, TDC marks on engine pulley aligns with TDC bolt.
I then removed the inspection cover on the injection pump, and the scribed line next to the letter C was in alignment with the circlip.

So the injection pump IS apparently timed correctly with the engine.

So I guess I am back to square one...

When attempting to start the engine fuel is flowing to the injectors, and after 5-10 seconds of running on the starter white smoke is coming out of the exhaust pipe, so unburnt fuel is being exhausted.
No cylinders are firing at all.

How about glow plugs (pre heat) .....Are they functioning....

Dale

 

[Kaltoft]

How about glow plugs (pre heat) .....Are they functioning....

Dale

This loader is not equipped with a preheater, but it ran perfectly fine before the fuel pump broke, so I would assume the rest of the ignition system is fine, unless there are any parts that could be damaged by a broken fuel pump / unclean fuel.

 

[Loaderman22]

Ok, I don't know squat about these, but a shot in the dark, does the battery have enough juice to spin the engine fast enough? When the pump broke, could small particles of metal gotten into the injectors?

 

[Kaltoft]

Ok, I don't know squat about these, but a shot in the dark, does the battery have enough juice to spin the engine fast enough? When the pump broke, could small particles of metal gotten into the injectors?

It had enough juice to start the engine before this problem, but I have been using a larger battery, that I borrowed from a fried, with plenty of power, for use while bleeding the fuel system, and that can also not get the engine running.
Yes, I would guess that metal particles would have released inside the fuel pump while the axle broke, but as soon as the axle broke, no more fuel was delivered in the fuel system so I don't see how it could have made it into the injectors.
But I am pretty sure the injection pump broke because of dirty fuel, and when disassembling the broken fuel pump it was absolutely filthy (see picture)



But it ran fine up until the pump broke, so I do not think the injectors would be faulty enough that the engine cannot start, and certainly not all four at the same time. And the white smoke in the exhaust when attempting to start does also imply that fuel is being injected.
What do you guys think - should I try to clean the injectors next ?

 

[CoyPatton]

And as far as I can tell, that is done in the engine timing case by making sure that the camshaft, idler, crank, and injection pump gears all align on their timing marks. You cannot adjust the timing on the pump.

Agree to some extent that you can not adjust the timing on the pump, but it is still referred to as timing the pump. The pump must be set ad per the service manual instructions so that it delivers fuel to the appropriate cylinder has it needs it typically on any fuel injected (directly to each cylinder) system sometime during the compression stroke.
This is referred to as timing the pump as I have always heard it stated. Delivering fuel to cylinder #3 when it needs fuel to cylinder #1 will never get the 2 (engine and pump) in sync regardless of how you turn the pump except by total accident/miracle.

 

[CoyPatton]

Yeah but close enough to TDC on compression stroke to be valid in discussion...

And on a gas engine ignition timing can be anywhere form 7.5 to 30 Degrees BTDC ...

Really only difference is instead of ignition event is initialized by sparkplug on gas engine ands in diesel ignition event is initialized by the injection of fuel...

Dale

Dale it is not the injection of fuel that ignites a diesel engine. If so an injection on any stroke of the 4 strokes would cause fuel ignition.
It is fuel be present at near the appropriate time during the compression strike, where ignition occurs as a factor of compression and heat.

 

[CoyPatton]

I have just had the valve cover off, and rotated the engine to TDC cyl. 1 compression stroke, TDC marks on engine pulley aligns with TDC bolt.
I then removed the inspection cover on the injection pump, and the scribed line next to the letter C was in alignment with the circlip.

So the injection pump IS apparently timed correctly with the engine.

So I guess I am back to square one...

When attempting to start the engine fuel is flowing to the injectors, and after 5-10 seconds of running on the starter white smoke is coming out of the exhaust pipe, so unburnt fuel is being exhausted.
No cylinders are firing at all.

Assuming what you have described of TDC and and ‘C’ in the inspection port to be the service manual procedure, I would think that you have a misalignment of the splines from the injector shaft to the cam mating plate.
I do not nor I have stated I know your engine. Pieces inside the injector pump are suspect as being on of sync if timing procedure places everything in line. It does not make sense the anything inside the engine is off by even 1 tooth ad you indicate nothing on that side has be touched internally.
I would pull the pump and check time marks between the splined shaft and mating plate.

 

[CoyPatton]

Another thought, did you mark the housings prior to removal of the pump to repair it?
Your pump housing should have a slotted bolt hole to allow for slight timing adjustments as the engine is running.
If you made alignment marks prior to removal, start at that location as you reassemble.

 

[Kaltoft]

I feel that I owe an update on the situation.
In short, the engine is now running perfectly fine again.

As my research indicated that it should be pretty much impossible to mount this pump out of time enough that it will not start, I removed the pump from the engine, again.
I then finally managed to get in contact with someone with knowledge and equipment to test the pump, and the tests showed that the pump was only delivering about 30% of the fuel that it was supposed to. While assembling the pump, I had apparently mounted one of the plunger rollers upside-down, causing the issue. Once the pump was assembled correctly, the fuel-output was measured to be within spec.
When the pump was mounted to the engine, timing marks aligned, and the injector lines cracked open, a much larger amount of fuel was sprayed out of the injector lines, and when the injector lines was tightened up again, it started after the 2nd attempt.

Thank you for your assistance.

 

[jonsstihl]

It takes guts to admit a mistake like that. Thank you for updating the post. If it keeps one of us from making the same mistake it was worth the 15 minutes of shame.

 

[WranglerX]

So everybody that stated it was not possible to assemble it "out of time" were correct, everybody that swore it was "timed" wrong was wrong?

Simple mistake in assembly sure caused a lot of heart burn.... Glad it's all ok now....

Dale

 

[nisaacs]

Did an R&R injection pump on my Bobcat Loader, 4.236 Perkins Diesel. It was making oil, so I changed out the mechanical lift pump first, no luck. I went with a recon from Oregon Fuel Injection. I did have to wait 2 weeks for them to build me one, but I think they are an O.K. outfit. About 1/3 the time and aggravation of a Dodge 1st gen VE change out.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Would have taken me 3 days.
Maybe next time..

 

[jaymond33]

the engine and the injector pump in the service manual. Failure to follow these procedures, means you are shooting in the dark, with a blind fold on after having bern spun until your brain does not know up from right, right from down or down from left.

Nox Vidmate VLC​