Fuel safety

NY_Yankees_Fan · Dec 19, 2002

Fred,

Diesel fuel has a flash point of about 125F. If the temperature is above 125F , it will give off vapors that can ignite if it finds a source of ignition, i.e. static electricity. If the temperature is less then 125 F , then you do not have to worry about ignition. BUT always a but, on a real hot day, and the bed of your truck is metal or even plastic, and is hot, and diesel fuel spills on it , it could heat up enough to give off vapors and flash on that nasty static stuff, just takes a little more of Murphy around to get things going!

Be careful

Tom

Inspector507 · Dec 19, 2002

True
Diesel is combustible........Gasoline is flammable

Phred · Dec 19, 2002

Thanks for the clarification of terminology.
Anyone who is tried to ignite diesel fuel, for example to burn trash, has experinced the difference. Its much harder to ignite.

When I worked at a chemical plant many years ago we used metal cans only for highly flamible liquids.
such as:
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.justritemfg.com/transfer.tpl?cart=1040350274847397&qt=[qt]>http://www.justritemfg.com/transfer.tpl?cart=1040350274847397&qt=[qt]</A>

These things will not build up static like the plastic ones do but cost more.

Fred

NY_Yankees_Fan · Dec 19, 2002

BUT add a quart or so of gasoline to a few gallons of diesel and see how they burn. The gas does a great job of warming the diesel above its flashpoint and then just burns real nice. If you ignite a few gallons of gasoline, you get a big flash, but goes out pretty fast as the fuel burns off. How do I know this, from setting fires in houses for practice burns for firefighting. The diesel fuel always kept those fires burning long enough to get things going real good. That was back in the old days when the EPA used to let you open burn!

Oh for the good old days…lol

Hydraman · Dec 24, 2002

I have some experience with fuels.
1. Bonding. = establishing an electrical bond between containers BEFORE transfering any liquid. Jumper cable works good.
2. ALL electrical devices turned off before transfering any liquid.
3. Engine shut off.
4. CELL PHONE OFF AND OUT OF REACH!!!!!
5. Non- sparking soles on shoes.
6. NO SMOKING!!!
7. Engage brain!
If you watch around convenince stores etc.; you might be surprised about how many of the basic "common sense" rules are violated time after time!
Fact. More vehicles driven by women catch fire while being fueled. More women will start the fuel flowing, then re-enter the vehicle while wearing synthetic fabric!!
More women will be talking on cell phone while fueling.
The list goes on. This information was on a bulletin that I recently saw at a refinery where I go to deliver raw procuct.
Don

wroughtn_harv · Dec 25, 2002

You would have loved Nam.

There we had outdoor toilets, many holers. We also had the duty of burning crap.

It isn't easy.

Thank gawd we had a contrary bunch and so someone was always in trouble and the burning crap duty fell to them.

The routine was to pull the vessel, vessel being a one third end of a metal fifty five gallon barrel, out from under the couch portion of the many holer. However many holers it had was how many vessels that needed to be burned.

Then one would pour diesel over the contents in the vessel. Of course it wouldn't light. So then one poured gasoline over the diesel. Half the time the gas would burn off before the diesel got lit. Then it was more gas, stir contents, light.

Did I mention the NCO's getting their kicks by demanding stirring of contents to insure proper burning?

People complain about my lack of respect for authority. If they'd been exposed to the quality of the authority I was exposed they would understand.

Marked me for life. I now have sympathy for authority, but no emphathy. And you know the difference between sympathy and empathy.

Sympathy is when you see someone heaving their guts out sea sick on a cruise. And you walk up and pat them on the back while telling them it'll get better and hope they fall overboard before someone else gets it.

Empathy is when you come upon same and start heaving your guts out besides them so they will know they're not alone.

Phred · Dec 28, 2002

Hydraman,

Good info and I agree....

But I have a problem with this concept of a cell phone igniting anything.

Yeh I have heard this before but think about it.

Your cell phone runs off of about ~2.5V. Dry air is about 70V / mil (70V / 0.001"). So lets assume its ~1/3 of that due to a humid day say ~20V. That would mean that a gap of ~0.1 mil would be needed to create an arc with the cellphone voltage. Any gap that small would be very hard to maintain and would be to small to ignite gas fumes. Very unlikely IMHO. Try to get a spark with a AAA battery.

The other argument I have heard is the EM radiation. This is pretty far fetched in my opinion. The power is very low and we are all bathed in EM radiation while standing at the pump from all sorts of other sources (radios, CBs, the cell phone tower, ....) most of which are higher power.

So the question in my mind is did some lawyer say "hey its electrical and could cause a spark so lets put up a warning to CYA". or did someone do some real sceince on this issue?

Fred

Hydraman · Dec 29, 2002

Fred
I am going back to the refinery where I saw this bulletin this afternoon and will see if I can get a copy of it.
Also, regulations at ALL refineries that I frequent are the same-- ALL ELECTRICAL DEVICES TURNED OFF while in refinery.
Also, another Q. -- Just that IF it might be some way possible, in exactly the right conditions, that a device MIGHT be the cause of ignition; is it better to have it turned off, or just leave it on???
As far as more fires resulting from women than men, the fire is PROBABLY the result of re-entering the vehicle while fueling and wearing synthetic fabric; therefore generating a static spark and causing ignition.
I have been at COUNTLESS stores and stations where I have observed BOTH men and women stand ther fueling while smoking a cigarette, and gotten away with it. But does that mean that it should be OK to smoke while fueling?? I don't think so!!
I go back to my previous post at this point--"ENGAGE BRAIN"!

When handling flammables, ALWAYS refer to 'Murphy's Law'!
If it CAN happen--someday it WILL!!
Happy New Year--Don

Trev · Dec 29, 2002

Diesel is combustible........Gasoline is flammable 

One of the oddities of English, I guess, but I could never understand how "flammable" and "inflammable" could mean the very same thing! I can't think of any other word where the prefix "in" doesn't mean the reverse of the word without the prefix. (E.g., sincere/insincere, sensitive/insensitive, and so on.)

normde2001 · Dec 29, 2002

Bob, look up "ravel" and "unravel".....Same thing.

Hydraman · Dec 31, 2002

Fred;
Got some info for you--go to http://www.pei.org and click on
"Stop Static" in center of home page. There is all kinds of info there pertaining to transfer of fuel safely. Happy New Year
Don

Phred · Jan 2, 2003

Hydraman,

I could not get your link to work.

I think your post answers the question: the policy is anything electrical.

Probably better safe than sorry but I would think one would need to work very hard to start a fire with a cell phone or other low voltage device.

High voltage is another story all togheter.

Happy new year.

Fred

Hydraman · Jan 3, 2003

Fred;
I guess I am not "computer smart" enough to make a link, yet
so just type in website. There have been an increase in fires at filling stations in recent years, and both the American Petroleum Institute and the Petroleum Equipment Institute are conducting studies as to why.
As to 'low voltage' vs 'high voltage'-- that is not the question; but is the device rated for use in a hazardous atmosphere.
I know that Motorola makes 2-way radios that are "safe" anmd therefore "approved". Also something as simple as a flashlight must be rated for use in a hazardous atmosphere. I.E. 'explosion proof'. Thanks, and have a good day!
Don

Anonymous Poster · Jan 3, 2003

I guess I am not "computer smart" enough to make a link, yet


Sure you are, Hydraman!

Take a look at the faq...there are examples there. Just type them in as shown and it will work. Almost painless!

Even I can do that.../w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Bill in Pgh, PA

Hydraman · Jan 3, 2003

Like this?? <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.pei.org/>http://www.pei.org/</A>

Hydraman · Jan 3, 2003

Thanks,macher;
The day I can't learn something, they just as well shoot me!!!/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Anonymous Poster · Jan 3, 2003

Good job, Hydraman!

Bill in Pgh, PA

Anonymous Poster · Jan 4, 2003

Yup, voltage has nothing to do with it, the question is are the factors for ignition present, and it isn't always an arc/ spark that is needed (but it usually is). Heat, friction and radiation can also cause exlosions.

On some of the sites that I have worked at (pharmaceutical manufacturing) they will not allow any electrical or electronic device in the building unless it is "intrinsically safe", i.e. explosion proof - Class 1/ Div 1. Motorola also makes a Nextel phone that is intrinsically safe, but it is pretty expensive. These pharmaceutical/ chemical guys don't mess around. They don't waste money on sprinklers because they know if they get a spark/ fire the whole building is going to blow up. When I was at the site they had two drums of chemicals blow up because of poor ventilation and built up heat. All it took was a little spark and the roof was gone and two men were critically injured and maimed. The management was ousted shortly thereafter.

Phred · Jan 4, 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Yup, voltage has nothing to do with it, .....

<hr></blockquote>

I still don't think thats quite right. The key is a spark right?

So how does one create a spark with a low voltage device?
Piece of cake with high voltage (for example regular old 120V).
Try creating a spark with a double A battery. You really have to work at it.

I think the bottom line is that these organizations have just said no electrical devices period to keep it simple.

But I would love to hear of a documented case were a cell phone has ignited gas fumes.

Fred

Hydraman · Jan 5, 2003

Is the element in a regular 2 cell flashlight hot enough to cause ignition?? YES !!!! Spark?? Probably not!! How about a 2c. AA Maglite?? Same answer!! As msmccabe said in his post- ya don't necessarily need a spark/arc-- just heat or friction or radiation in the correct circumstances, and BOOM!!! If ya wanna risk it--just go for it!! If not--???
Y'all have a fine day. Don