Fun with gates

[wroughtn_harv]

Ron,

Those hinges are the greatest. If you're ever on 380 heading east (when we go to Arizona every fall on vacation we run up to 380 and turn left. It ends at I 25 in New Mexico. Lots faster and more interesting than I 40.) Anyway in Farmersville there's a tractor place on your right named Pinky's. If you turn right on that street and go back behind Pinky's you'll be in an industrial complex. You'll see Wylie Drilling. Check out their gates. It's a thirty eight foot opening with the gates reaching nine feet tall in the middle. They weigh about fifteen sixteen hundred pounds apiece.

They're on those hinges.

Remember what I said about hundred and eighty degree hinges so the gate when open can be folded back against the fence. If you use those hinges what you'll find is your post and your gate frame will be just about a half inch apart with the hinge being on the inside of the gate swing.

You might start noticing something. Well you probably already have and have probably figured it out. But when you hit a gate or a corner you will see the fence hump up one panel back. The reason that happens is the gate post isn't deep enough to support the gate by itself. So the gate starts to pull on the post. The post starts to sink and push the bottom in away from the gate. This causes the top rail to hump up. It eventually lifts the second post back in line from the gate. Then you have the hump. The cure is a gate post with a hole too deep and having too much concrete. Too much is usually just enough.

There used to be some boys here in North Texas that put in miles of pipe and cable. What they did was used sandline cable. It's like they use on cranes etc, braided like rope.

They'd weld up one end. Then they'd pull it through the eyes on the line posts. The end post they'd have holes blown through where they could pull the cable on through. They'd pull it snug. Then they'd weld a large nut to the cable and cut off the cable. They'd tighten the cable by turning the nut. When they had it tight they'd weld the nut to the post.

Then mother nature would wreck havoc. I don't know why but the cable would continue to tighten up. I went on one job they'd done where they'd had a winding drive. They'd pulled the cable through end to end without any stops. When the cable started self tightening it literally pulled the bottoms of the posts in towards a straight line. The ranch owner called me for an estimate for a repair. He almost had a coronary. I not only had to bid putting in a new fence. I had to bid removing the old one.

But if you see a pipe and cable fence that's like a south Dallas paint job on a car (waving at you like you're family) check it out. Chances are it's that kind of installation.

If you look around you'll see all these fences with expansion joints. I didn't know you were supposed to do that if you welded it up right. So I never did. By the time I found out I was doing it all wrong I noticed that all my fences just didn't seem to need it.

On your question about pulling the bow out between posts above in "Projects". In your mind imagine the pattern left if your favorite female movie star planted a kiss on the top rail dead over a post. A wet open mouthed kiss. Now take your torch and make that lipstick pattern red. And then go on down to the next post. You're a sick puppy thinking thoughts like that.

Keep in mind, when you heat it up it's going exaggerate the problem. It's when it cools off that it does all the work.

While it's on my mind. I've meant to mention it to you a couple of times and have lost the thought. When I build a fence for horses especially and other livestock too. I try to avoid ninety degree corners. This is especially true the smaller the pen. When an animal feels cornered and reacts accordingly is when they hurt themselves or whatever's got them into that position.

 

[rf33]

Thanks for all the great info again Harv, if you are ever out this a'way, let me know and I will buy you a few of your favorite beverage.

I have noticed several of the gate and corner posts sagging and leaning on fences around here, and the top rails above them bowing. I guess lots of people think that not quite enough is just right/w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif... I think that you and I are of the same school... To me, if I am going to the trouble to do a project, I am going to likely overdo it. Just ask my wife, who will go on and on about things like an 800 lb doghouse complete with tile floors, or about the spiderweb of conduit I have buried under our property running to every conceivable location I might need electric / phone / cable, etc.

I planned on using 4" gate posts buried 4' in the ground with 12" augered holes. My gates are going to weigh about 300 lbs each (all single 12' gates), and I plan to use the Antech Guardian hinges. For the corners, I am going to use 2 45 degree angles spaced 8' (one post) apart rather than to use any 90 degree angles. (I think you must have been reading my mind on that one).

Most of the pipe and cable fences I have seen going up around here now have those big springs inline on the cable, probably to prevent what you have been referring to.

Thanks for the description of the top rail heating technique. I will try it out on my new fence (starting to dig the post holes next week), and let you know how it works for me.

I am going to try out a modified way to do the saddle cuts on the pipe and was wondering what you might think. My idea is going to use bimetal holesaw bits sized the same as the OD of the pipe, and a modified drill press with pipe clamps on the base. I think that I might go through quite a few holesaw bits, but if I can get really clean cuts through the pipe, I think that the welding and sighting could go lots smoother.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Since we're so close, sixty miles, nothing in Texas. You might consider either coming by my place and checking out my arcfit knotcher or stopping by Wylie Steel and looking at their samples I've done for them.

If you buy direct from Vogel you're looking less than a thousand. If you buy through some of the many wholesalers you're looking over that.

It cuts a saddle in schedule forty two and three eighths that Anne Frank could weld up.

If you brought over a piece or two of your tubing we could try it with the arc fit. If it worked you would be saving money over the holesaws let me tell you by buying an arc fit. And when you're done you can sell it to a local fence man for probably ninety percent of your costs. (none of them know about it. they think I've got a big punch press at the shop.)

I made this little wheel barrow looking thingy dingy. I mounted the arc fit to it over the wheel. I had this <A target="_blank" HREF=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/vwp?.dir=/ben+brook&.src=ph&.dnm=contraption+for+construction.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst%3f%26.dir=/ben%2bbrook%26.src=ph%26.view=t>big job</A> where we had to cope (saddle) all these joints. It was a two rail schedule forty pipe fence with some sections thirty five feet off the ground. (check out the pictures).

The way you use it is you put the pipe in, pull down, turn the pipe a hundred and eighty degrees, pull down. You've got a saddle that's cleaner than the Pope's little black book.

 

[rf33]

I'd love to come by and see your place. I should be getting the pipe dropped off near the beginning of next week. Maybe I could bring a piece of it by sometime next weekend?

I think that you are right about the holesaw bits going pretty quick, but I was thinking about being able to cut off posts which were already set. If I could make it work, it sure would make setting the posts a piece of cake.

Thanks again for all of your help.

Ron

 

[wasabi]

Harv, thanks for the detailed response....sorry to be so long in responding, but life is a blur these days...

<font color=blue>If you're where electricity is a pain to get then you can go low voltage and a screw drive.</font color=blue>

that solution sounds like what we need. Each of three gates are more than 2500 ft from the house site, so running AC wire is impractical....though we might still have to run some telephone wire or coax for camera, phone etc....

The gates are fairly heavy, but well below the 800 lbs you mentioned. There are no hinges, persay...rather, a 6" sched 80 pipe simply slides over a 4" (I think), with an ear type thing to keep it there. Action is actually pretty smooth, considering no hinge. I'll have to measure but I think they are 18 foot long with an angle at the base of the hinged side to hold up the horizontal. They close and lock against another 6" upright.

Ideally, we would have an opening/closing mechanism, intercom/security keypad, remote in the truck and 24/7 security camera tagged into a puter, all powered by battery backup....all three locations are heavily wooded, but we probably could configure a 10V solar panel to pick up 3 or 4 hours a day for trickle charge.

Security locking mechanism may be a trick. I really like your sliding bar idea, but am not sure about retrofitting now that the gates are already in place. I 'spose we could cut a window with a torch and spot weld cover plates afterward, but arranging and fixing brackets to guide the sliding bar inside the pipe might be a feat.

Any ideas where I could scare up the necessary components at reasonable prices?

Maybe if we sweeten the deal by also arranging for you to do up some artistic Bearpen logos to fancy up our plain jane gates, and you decide to take a vacation in the beautiful NC smoky mountains, and you decide a house call is in order, and the price doesn't make a man throw his hat in a crick......well then, a plan might could come together....did I mention trout fishing and how nice these mountains are?

Now where did I put that budget stretcher anyway....

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Ron,

Here's how I set my posts. Since I work by myself or with a day laborer I usually use a string if the lines are short. If they're longer what I will do is temporarily stand up plumb marker posts. One at each end and one in the middle. The middle one I place by stabbing it into the ground. I go back to the closest end and then sight down the side. I keep moving the middle post in and out until when I sight down the side of the end post towards the other end post I can't see it because of the middle post.

I will then start at one corner and with upside down paint if the ground is hard or with a claw hammer if it's soft I'll mark off lines perpendicular to the fence line on eight foot centers.

If when I get to the other end I'll stop about thirty feet away and measure. I will then try to divide that measurement so that I have less than eight but an even number. Sometimes I have to come back more than thirty feet to get that number but what I'm after is not a short section at the corner. That screams to even the varmints that either a rookie or someone who didn't have much pride set those posts!

Once I have the eight foot centers marked I pick up a pair of post hole diggers. I hold them from the tops of the handles over the mark. I look down one side. I move the diggers making sure I'm holding them by the handles high so that they're hanging plumb in and out until the edge of the diggers lines up with the center marker post and the one at the far end. When they line up just perfect. You'll know. I drop the diggers and they will leave a mark. If I am using paint I will mark across my eight foot center mark with the paint. I do this over each mark. Now when I hit the marker post I turn around and sight back to the other end post. What is important is if I sighted down the north side of the line even though I'm looking back the other way I make sure I'm sighting down the north side.

I dig my holes. Now what you might want to keep in mind is the width of your posts and allow for the placement of the center of your auger accordingly. In other words if you're posts are two and a half inches o.d. and you're going to leave your original marker posts up to help with your setting (good idea) you might want to center your auger an inch over so that it's center of the post line and not center of the north edge of the fence line.

I set my corner posts. I set them one inch higher than nominal fence height. I use a marker that will contrast with the post to mark down the diameter of the toprail plus the one inch. I make a nice horizontal line that is easy to see at a distance. I knock down the center marker post and get it out of my way.

I go to the second post in line from the end I'm going to start setting. I line it up the same way I did the marking post.

BTW the posts are always lined up with a torpedo level holding them plumb!

And don't use the magnetic side!

The devil will get you for that!

Actually what will happen is if you're not triple careful you'll pull your post out of plumb removing the level.

I will usually put a little mixed concrete in that second post to hold it in place while I set it. Again, plumb it up, check it, move it plumb, check it, etc.

When it's dead on where when you look down the side you can't see the other end post unless you move your eye a half inch off line you're doing good.

Fill the hole with concrete. Since you're doing livestock fence I suggest leaving the concrete down four to six inches from the top of the hole. The livestock will walk the fence line. If the path they wear down erodes the dirt around your post and the concrete is higher then you have a potential hazard to them. And if they don't wear it down and you weed eat it will save you string hitting the smooth pipe versus the ragged concrete.

Now you have the second post set for line. Go back to your near end post. Hold your plumb for level at your line you made. Sight over the top of the level towards your other end. What you're wanting to see is the bottom of your saddle and just barely your corresponding mark on the other end post.

Did I mention you presaddle all your posts? I should have.

You move up and down the second post until it's perfect. Each time you move it you check if for line.

I know it sounds busy but you only have to do this one time a line.

Once it's perfect then you go to post between your second post and your near corner or end. Holding that post plumb with your torpedo level you move it in and out of line until you can see either nothing of the far end post or just a hair of it. You put your concrete in the hole. Now you double check your post for line and pull it up for height. What you're looking for is to barely see that horizontal line over the bottom of the saddle of the post your'e setting. When it's perfect you step around the post and look back at the other end to verify it's perfect that direction too.

When that one's perfect then you're home free. All the rest of it's pure work plain and simple. You pick up your third line post and sight over the saddle when it's plumb and in line towards your near corner or end. When it's perfect you step back to your previous post and double check it by looking down over it to the far end.

This might sound like too much work and too complicated. I have folks all the time tell me that it's too hard when it's so easy to stretch a string and set all the posts high. Then you come back and stretch another string tight mark your posts and cut them all with a torch and then saddle them with the torch and a sure cut.

You can usually see when they've done that. The fence will have a bow because any wind that blows will catch string. It also so sags so you will see where the middle of the section is slightly lower than the ends.

I spend fifty percent longer setting my posts this way than they do with the string. But when it's time to come back welding in I have perfect saddles dead in line for height and line. I just lay in my top rail and weld it in. I'm done before they are and my job looks a hundred times better. If the customer wouldn't know the difference then they're not the kind of customer I want anyway.

I like working with picky people. Picky people appreciate quality. Sometimes you have to educate them but generally they're capable of learning too.

I once was just cleaning up from setting a line about four hundred feet long. An old boy drove up, got out of his truck, looked down the saddles, and shook his head. I don't think I ever really convinced him that I'd done it all by eye. To this day I'm sure he'll tell you I am the best man he ever seen with a string.

But setting posts this way is a good metaphor on life. The whole secret to a perfectly straight line is making sure each post is perfect and then leaving it to go to the next. It's sorta funny how if you've made sure each one is perfect then when you get to the end it's all perfect and it was done one at a time.

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe. But there's few things finer than looking down a straight line of posts and knowing that you're the luckiest guy on the planet.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Ah man you're talking my dream.

If I had my dream it would be this. I'd like to have my truck and a nice travel trailer. My wife loves working and traveling with me. What would be the ultimate dream would be able to travel this great nation with all it's wonderful folks and take along my tools.

We could park the trailer close to some place like yours. We, you, me, yours, mine, would start off with a good breakfast and then we'd get out there and get after it. We could build what you want the way you want as long as I approved of course and have more fun than any human is allowed to have.

I have more tools than just about anyone I know. I'd have the tools and a little bit of knowledge and with your dream and energy it would be fun.

About five years ago We took Moby, the truck, and visited relatives in Arizona. They had it all set up where the concrete truck came in early the next morning. One of the highlights of my life is standing there mud boots tamping concrete and looking around to my dad, his sister, his brother since passed, his brother in law, my wife, my aunt too, all of us covered with concrete and pouring slabs. I was the youngest and my dad's brother, since passed, was the oldest.

The next day I was cutting and welding and we were putting up a killer storage building and a patio cover.

There's few things finer than good work and kindred spirits doing same.

The biggest hurdle to modifying the existing gate is find that spring combination. I like to use big succor rod for the bolt. It's too hard to cut with anything but a torch and it don't bend easy.

The other stuff is just details. As for the twelve volts what I advise my customers to do to prolong the life of the batteries is to rotate them with those in the bass boat etc.

 

[MarkV]

Harv,

First I would like to complement you on your work. Very, very nice. Also thank you for sharing with all of us. Some consider me one of those picky carpenters and you are exactly right when you say that the customers that don’t know the difference are not the ones I want.

As I read your method of setting posts and not using string I was thinking that I would be using my laser level. Have you ever considered one? It would seem like it could be a real time saver in your business. In resent years they have become very reasonably priced and I find them useful from grading to trim work.

MarkV

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Mark,

It's a lot faster than it sounds. Actually even with using lots and lots of concrete I can set thirty to forty posts a day all by myself. That's laying out, digging holes, settin' them in concrete. With a good helper I can easily double that. But good helpers usually only last one day. (grin)

I've been in love with lasers for years. I have a David White Transit that's not getting much use cause I have a good rotary I use for setting grade on a lot of jobs.

Have you got one of those good laser torpedo levels with the three way lights? I love it. I can shoot a perfect ninety without the old three four five and over a point too.

In the old days of laying out a wood fence on uneven terrain the fence foreman would set up on one post and shooting over his torpedo level sight in a grade mark to the helper at each post.

Then I got my transit and found out it was so much easier. Then I got the rotary laser and got rid of the help. I can set that puppy up in the middle and walk around with the target marking each post. And once you have a reference mark the rest of it's junior high math.

What you might find interesting is how we set posts like for a tennis court. The corners and ends are set at twelve foot. The lines are set three and a half inches shorter to allow for the top rail. Most folks set posts high and then send a helper around with a ladder and a portaband after the grades are shot to cut the posts. We do it different. We sight them in for line and height.

Since I'm only five eight looking over a post twelve feet high is a mite of a problem. So I make a mark down six and a half feet with a sharpie for the ends and corners and six feet two and a half inches down for the lines. We use the sharpie lines for setting height. Once you get used to it you feel sorry for the guys on the ladders with the portaband.

I have a theory about sharing what you know about work. It's just the thing to do. And I've been most fortunate in that I've had the pleasure of working with some of the pickiest customers and craftsmen in the world I do believe. And even though each event was painfull from one perspective the lesson learned was always invaluable.

I try to keep the enthusiasm for work up for myself and for others. I look at these young guys and man there's been times I wished I'd had someone like me to hang out with. I could have learned all he knew in a short period of time and been off to conquer the world.

The biggest problem I see today is very few people understand what quality is. And it's not their fault. They have no reference point from which to start.

Used to be your father would be a craftsman. He might not know squat about any other trade but he knew quality in his own. And that point of reference gave him a perspective from which to judge other trades. He knew good work when he saw it.

These dot com millionaires and the tech kids have to be educated by us. A couple of years ago a neighbor came to me and asked about a fence like mine. I explained that the best thing to do was to allow me to help him buy the materials at my cost and I'd give him the name of some guys who were production fencemen that did okay work.

He came back wanting a fence like mine or one of the ones he'd heard I built in the city. I shaved the cost a bit cause he was a neighbor and gave him a quote. He gave me the job.

This young man was a techie making very decent money. But the reason I got the job is his father came in from out of town to visit. The kid showed him around. His dad told him to go with quality. His dad educated him and I benefited.

But without him being educated he'd never spent twice the price for a fence that his friends would have.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

<font color=blue>Maybe if we sweeten the deal by also arranging for you to do up some artistic Bearpen logos to fancy up our plain jane gates, and you decide to take a vacation in the beautiful NC smoky mountains, and you decide a house call is in order, and the price doesn't make a man throw his hat in a crick......well then, a plan might could come together....did I mention trout fishing and how nice these mountains are?</font color=blue>

Hush. Please. I might not be easy, but I can be had