Gas & Diesel Titans go head to head on the Gauntlet

Diamondpilot

Super Star Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
16,326
Location
Daleville, IN
Tractor
Jinma 254/284 Ford 861 Powermaster at work
They stated they loaded "This trailer with 10600 lbs". Not sure if they mean both. At 25 seconds they state both are loaded to max GVW and max GCVWR. I guess only they know. I never heard them state that the diesel was pulling more weight.
Even if it was it was only 1000#. It should have still won.

Chris
 

Renze

Elite Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
3,912
Location
the Steernbos (Holland)
Tractor
Zetor 3011, Zetor 5718
Looks like Nissan bit off more than they can chew. I'm not sure what market segment they we after, likely the ECODiesel segment or were they after the 3/4 ton market. Too expensive and lack-luster performance, they need to go back to the drawing board, reduce cost, and retune the engine.

Towing at 5-6000rpm with an automatic gearbox jumping through the gears every few seconds is considered a joke in Europe. How long do these engines last when towing everyday like this ? only in my childhood, there was an occasional light commercial vehicle with a gas engine around here, and then it was an ambulance or fire rescue vehicle.

You're probably right about price/performance of the Cummins, it may be too heavy duty for its price segment. If Ford stuffed the 4.4 liter Puma V8 currently in use in Landrover, in an F250, it would probably meet the market better, with 360hp (or downtuned to 300-320hp to make it last in a light commercial vehicle and not compete with the big powerstroke), a lower weight and most probably a lower price.
 
Last edited:

Renze

Elite Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
3,912
Location
the Steernbos (Holland)
Tractor
Zetor 3011, Zetor 5718
Rumors even out there that Ram may eventually replace the big Cummins in the 2500 and 3500 series with their own motors, but that is only rumor right now. Regardless enough rumors exist to make the diehard Cummins loyalists a little nervous.

In Case IH tractors they already did. When CIH shut down the old Neuss (Germany) IH plant in 1997 and moved the production of the MX to Doncaster, GB, Fiat/Iveco bought the tooling for the B series engine from the Neuss IH plant, while CIH got their engines from the UK Cummins plant for the Doncaster built tractors (and Perkins 4 cylinders for the smaller ones) (Fiat needed a new 6 liter diesel after a joint project with Nissan to develop a new 6.5 liter diesel to replace the already bored and stroked twice, short stroke Fiat 5.2/5.5/5.9 liter 8065 engine platform dating from the late 60s, but cooperation didnt quite work and the project was ditched when it became clear that no results would be achieved before the 1996 TIER 1 emission stage took effect)

The Cummins B and C series were a joint development of Case and Cummins, Case was too small on its own, and Cummins wasnt active in this market segment at that time. They developed the engine in 1980-1984 and produced it in a joint venture called CDC, Consolidated Diesel Corporation.

Trouble came when Fiat (New Holland) purchased CIH in 1999, which got the lawyers going: Did Fiat hereby had the right that was previously held by Case, to produce this joint developed engine ? The Italians said yes, and stopped paying royalties. Cummins was pissed off, and redesigned the engine into the 6.7 by increasing the 102x120 bore/stroke to 106x124 and patented it silly, they didnt patent anything commerically interesting, but just wanted to keep an advantage on Fiat/Iveco. So Fiat/Iveco made their own 6.7 liter version, with 104x132 bore/stroke. On the outside you can still see its roots, however the Fiat/Iveco (Now FPT, Fiat Power Train) emission system is better than the Cummins, because of the EPA reluctancy to accept DEF, which gave European manufacturers a leading advantage because they already experimented and produced DEF aftertreatment systems.

So, about the reliability of modern American diesels: Blame EPA. They prohibited the use of DEF because of EGR lobbyists, notably Navistar CEO Dan Ustian, who nearly ditched the company by holding on to the utopian ideal of a single fluid engine.

Forbes Welcome

American manufacturers just have to play catchup on DEF technology because EPA made them entirely focus on EGR/DPF. New Euro 6 class 8 trucks are as reliable as any other, and as fuel efficient as before the era of emission standards.

So, Case (and new holland) tractors already use an Italian Cummins clone, and Ram is owned by Chrysler which is owned by Fiat, who happens to own the Italian half-brother of the Cummins engine. I just dont know if the FPT version, with its ground down crankpins to accomodate the longer stroke into an existing block, likes the rpms of a pickup truck: In powerboats, FPT dont let them run more than 3000rpm. Cummins folks say due to crankshaft vibrations because FPT had to lathe down the crankpins to accomodate this stroke because Cummins patents prevented them from increasing the bore in this B series design, FPT folks say that their no EGR, DEF engines dont need to run those rpms to make 550hp because they breathe fresh air, no EGR. You decide ;)
 
Last edited:
 
Top