gas line easement

[jimg]

I'm looking at a piece of property w/ a natural gas pipeline running thru it and wondered if anyone else has one on their land. I've done some poking around the net for info (mostly .gov sites) and have a call in to the owning utility but I'd like to hear some first hand experiences too. My planned use for the land is hay and suspect that won't be an issue. However, that could change in the future to an operation which include deep tillage. It makes sense that the line should be buried deep enough to preclude damage from ag equipment but can't be certain until I talk w/ the utility. I've read that some (unspecified) ag activites can impact the line if it wasn't burined deep enough due to rock. I'm not planning at all to put structures near it or turn the cleared land back to forests (tree farm). So, roots and buildings won't be an concern.

The other issue that concerns me is line repair/etc that would cause damage to the fields. I understand the utility (is supposed to) puts things back as it was before they did the repairs/etc. Since I'm going to have a specific grass crop planted I would want that to be put back as it was. Are they only on the hook to put any grass in or what was there prior to digging it up? I assuming since I'll maintain the fields (keeping them clear) they won't need to come on the property to do that.

I'm sure there are plenty of questions and contingencies I haven't though of and would appreciate your input, first hand being best.

 

[Bird]

Jim, the first thing I'd want to do is to actually see and read the written easement contract. I'd also want to know what size the gas line is, how deep it is, what kind of pressure they're running, whether it's a local line or cross country, where the shut-off is in the event of an emergency, the phone number to contact in an emergency, how wide of an easement they have, and whether there are any restrictions on what you can do on the property.

I did leakage surveys for gas companies for a couple of years, and usually, those lines are pretty safe, but even if they bury them deep to start with, over the years errosion may make them much closer to the surface. One place that I was checking for leaks was supposed to have the line 4' deep, but the farmer who owned the land had plowed it up a year or so earlier, and of course, his plow wouldn't have gone more than 16" deep at most. Fortunately, he knew where the nearest shut-off was, promptly killed the engine on his tractor, bailed off, and ran to the shut-off and turned off the gas before calling the gas company.

I also know of one place where a maintainer (road grader) hit a big LPG line. He, too, promptly shut the machine down, bailed off, and ran. The sudden cold of that LPG hitting that hot machine totalled the machine and it was sheer luck that it didn't ignite.

I learned that there are tremendous differences in the pressure in those lines. There's one gas line running from the Texas coast to New Jersey and when I was checking for leaks where a local gas company tapped into it, it was running 975 psi. I had no idea until I started doing that job that any of them ran that kind of pressure. I also saw one place where the property owner had already poured a concrete slab foundation to build a garage right on top of the gas line. Of course, he was going to have to tear it up and start over.

 

[Hosskix]

Bird brings up some good points about the safety of farming around lines; and you really want to look at the easement agreement.

Some agreements I have seen just require the company to repair the line.
No compensation for the surface damage.
And several utility trucks and a backhoe can do some sever damage to a hayfield.

Also, check into remediation efforts in case of a leak.
Every gas line I've tapped into over the years has fluid in it of some sort, whether it's condensate from the gas or crude oil from inadequate separation systems, there's usually fluid in it.
And most of the fluids will kill lots of grass. For years.
Make sure that they will remove contaminated dirt and replace it with new fill in the case of a major repair.

 

[slowrev]

One person I know of was stopped from building a pond which would have flooded over the top of the gas line easment.

 

[Bird]

One person I know of was stopped from building a pond which would have flooded over the top of the gas line easment.

I would expect that restriction, although one place I was checking for leaks had an 8" line running right under the middle of a good sized pond.

 

[thingy]

Need to talk to the gas company before you buy,,they can tell you what size/pressure,how old etc,,,also they got rules,,,and its in writing and thats about it,,,,if your just growing grass or such,,should be any problems,,but if your planning on plowing or something,yeah,problems,,,,there is low pressure and how pressure as bird says,,but one thing he didn't say,is the least of your worries is your machine running off,and blowing up,,if you puncture a big line with high pressure,,you won't need no tractor any mores,,think of balloon popping,,gas lines have about sch 40 pipe,generally,,thats thin,,put pressure in it,,and say its 16 inch pipe,well,4-500 psi in a 16 inch pipe,, blow a **** of a hole.
But,the gas company would be the people to talk to,,,thingy

 

[EddieWalker]

I used to own some land with two gas lines crossing it. No big deal since the provided good access to the land. When I bought it, I was told the gas lines were burried a minimum of four feet and most were 6 feet deep. OK, that sounded good to me.

After I owned the land awhile I wanted to cross the pipe with an electrical line. I called to have it marked and when the guy was out there, I asked him how deep the line was. He said that nobody has any idea how deep the lines are. They were installed by contractors who bid the entire job from point A to point B and the faster they got it in, the better there profits.

Unfortunately, allot of them were never inspected and the contractors were able to put the pipe in the ground fairly shallow. Sometimes just a foot down.

A few years ago a guy was ascraping the grass off the ground on his land with a track loader and he hit a pipe. The preasure was so much that it moved the track loader. I don't remember what sized machine it was, but just the fact that it moved it scared me really good!!!!

Rule number one, NEVER TRUST THEM when they tell you how deep the pipe is. Nobody knows for sure and anything they say is just what it's "SUPPOSED" to be. Not fact.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Dusty]

What color should the pipe be ?

 

[deereguy]

Along with a phone call to the gas company, take a look into the deeds of the properties, they should shed some light on your questions. Rockie Montain Express is running a line, 42" I believe, across the mid-west. They are trying to use existing easements so they don't have to purchase more land from landowners. They are proposing doing as deep as 16' in some areas. I attended one meeting and found it doesn't pertain to any property we own, so I haven't been following it close. I feel you can't research the gas lines enough.

Good Luck.

 

[jimg]

Hmmmm...pretty interesting stuff. I planned to talk w/ the utility company anyway and have a long list of questions which is now even longer. I hadnt planned on looking at the easement docs but now I suppose I'll do that as well. I'll venture a guess that I won;t be able to read and understand the easement docs w/o a lawyer...rigt? Today when I asked the realtor about the line he didn't have too much to say other than he didn't think it was a big issue....but he really didn't know too much about them.

Is there any means to determine the depth of the line w/o digging it up? Seems there should be.

 

[Bird]

What color should the pipe be ?

Is this a trick question, Dusty? It depends on how old that pipe is. I would assume you're thinking of the yellow "plastic" pipe that's currently most common. Yellow paint and/or flags are also used to mark underground gas lines. However, black pipe was used in the past, and on one leakage survey job I did, they still had quite a bit of cast iron pipe with the flange or bell fittings that was put in the ground in 1921 according to their maps. And of course, galvanized pipe has been used. Copper tubing used to be common in many applications. Even the gas company installed copper tubing for my gas lights and grill in 1972 and a gas grill in 1977. However, copper is now frowned on for natural gas. And while most state laws pretty well parallel federal law, there are some differences in different states. On one job I did, there were some mobile home parks and it was illegal there to use flexible lines from the gas meter to the mobile home, while on another job in another state, in a mobile home park, flexible lines from the gas meter to the mobile home were required.

 

[Bird]

Today when I asked the realtor about the line he didn't have too much to say other than he didn't think it was a big issue....but he really didn't know too much about them.

As I said, they're usually safe and no problem, but I'd want to know what was there. However, to a lot of people, I'm sure the realtor was right. I have a cousin who bought 40 acres south of Dallas and there's a pipeline running across it. He knows generally where it is because they've kept the trees cut down along it, and that's all he knows; doesn't even know or care what size, whether it's gas, oil, LPG, etc.

 

[deereguy]

When you are looking up the deeds, ask the people there in the office for assistance, they aren't surveyors, but they can help you with some generalities of the property. Our family has worked with only one realtor who represented the farm we purchased in 2005, he and the landowner lied about too many items to list here, they both said "they didn't know anything".

My point is to do as much homework as possible and ask questions around to see what people might be willing to share, so you can make an informed decision.

 

[Dusty]

Today when I asked the realtor about the line he didn't have too much to say other than he didn't think it was a big issue....but he really didn't know too much about them.

Is there any means to determine the depth of the line w/o digging it up? Seems there should be.

He is only interested in selling the land, and the less he says, the less he can be held responsible for. When dealing with the realtor, remember, that he / she works for the seller, not the buyer. Many times they will tell you that you don't need a lawyer. If you hire a lawyer, he will be working for you, and is being paid to protect your interests, not the sellers. Many people believe that the mortgage company lawyers will protect them. They work for the mortgage company, not you. If you can't afford to have an attorney working for you, then you can't afford to purchase the property, because the money you spend now, will save you 10 times that amount later on when problems arise. It is always better to be pro active, than re active. Resolve all these issues before you purchase the land. Later on, you might not even be able to sell the land because of potential problems. A good lawyer will not cost you money, but will save you money and headaches.
Dusty

 

[AlanB]

It may be helpful, may not but those big gaslines are regulated by DOT. It was kind of a "trick question" at one of the last classes I was in,

What modes of transportation does DOT regulate...... None of us thought of Pipeline..... Not something many of us use.

Anyway, as you are checking the DOT.gov website, they are the authority having jurisdiction.

OH, and I wholeheartedly second what Dusty just said.

 

[CurlyDave]

Is there any means to determine the depth of the line w/o digging it up? Seems there should be.

Depending on its size and material, you could gently probe for it...

OTOH, if you are dead set on this land, you could make an offer contingent on the current owner demonstrating the depth of the pipeline in a number of places that you choose. That way you don't have to dig it up.

I would look long & hard at this. If the line is on the edge of the property, that is one thing, if it is down the center, that is totally different. Maybe you should just decide to not do anything with the land for 10'-20' or so on each side of the pipeline. Deduct that acreage from the total when you think about prices, and then deduct some more for the inconvenience. Every once in a while I read about someone getting killed by a gas leak from one of these pipelines.

 

[gemini5362]

What color should the pipe be ?

dusty that was not nice

 

[gemini5362]

He is only interested in selling the land, and the less he says, the less he can be held responsible for. When dealing with the realtor, remember, that he / she works for the seller, not the buyer. Many times they will tell you that you don't need a lawyer. If you hire a lawyer, he will be working for you, and is being paid to protect your interests, not the sellers. Many people believe that the mortgage company lawyers will protect them. They work for the mortgage company, not you. If you can't afford to have an attorney working for you, then you can't afford to purchase the property, because the money you spend now, will save you 10 times that amount later on when problems arise. It is always better to be pro active, than re active. Resolve all these issues before you purchase the land. Later on, you might not even be able to sell the land because of potential problems. A good lawyer will not cost you money, but will save you money and headaches.
Dusty

Dusty I agree with you totally I would add a bit to this though. Make sure you get a real estate attorney easements are very tricky things. A good place to look is a local real estate title company. Several of them have inhouse attorneys that do side work also. The advantage to an inhouse title attorney is the amount of experience they have with easements. Most of them have to draft easements. All of them have to aprove easements on property the title company writes a title policy on. The second thing I would add went along with what a previous poster said. I would make them mark the line all the way across the property. A surveyor has equipment to do that so I would make sure that it was done before I bought it.

 

[Bird]

Is there any means to determine the depth of the line w/o digging it up? Seems there should be.

Depending on its size and material, you could gently probe for it...

That might work, but there's a pretty good probability the pipe is too deep for that. As someone else mentioned, one new line going in is expected to be 16' deep in places, and one line I walked was supposedly put in at 15' in depth.

 

[CurlyDave]

That might work, but there's a pretty good probability the pipe is too deep for that. As someone else mentioned, one new line going in is expected to be 16' deep in places, and one line I walked was supposedly put in at 15' in depth.

If the pipe is too deep for that to work, it is deep enough not to be a worry.

The difference between 5' and 15' is 10' of safety factor for normal disturbance.

Except for the issue of what happens when the pipe corrodes through and blows out...