Geared trannys-more low end torque than hydro ?

KiotiJohn · Sep 9, 2004

Torque is an operation of the engine. How it is utilized is an operation of the transmission.
Most torque peaks do not come at the highest RPM on any tractor. If you look at most torque curves you'll find the peak is often somewhere in the half of rated power range.
As in a 2600 HP rating which is common in CUTs, often the torque peak will be somewhere around 1600-1800 RPM. If you're using either gear or HST, with the RPM running higher and get into a load situation, the torque is going to peak when the RPM is brought down to the level where it's rated to peak. In other words, your tractor may lug down some from rated speed, but it's going to hit the torque peak and pull stronger when it's lugged down to the range where the torque peak occurs. Now how the transmission effects the way that is handled is something I don't want to even get into. John

Robert_in_NY · Sep 9, 2004

Wow, when ever someone makes a statement or even a question about a geared tractor being better then a hydro on this board you had better expect this type of response. To get a true answer to your question you should go to the ag boards. There is more to life then trannys and some day some of these people will get the hint and just answer the question instead of getting offended by it. Take care.

Egon · Sep 9, 2004

Been thinking about this gear/HST/ torque/efficiency/ longevity item.

Came to the conclusion that in 40 years or less I'd not be thinking about about any of it /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Egon

Soundguy · Sep 9, 2004

( They are also a bit difficult to pull/roll start )

Great point.. ever try to pull start a car with an auto tranny?

another thing that comes to mind is emergency movement. I'm sure many of us farm types have at one time or another used the starter, with the tractor in gear, to get off railroad tracks, or to nudge the tractor forward in the barn.. or to drive an otherwise non running tractor up on a trailer.

Soundguy

Soundguy · Sep 9, 2004

( It was much easier to change a shoe or so )

Being a horse owner.. I can chime in here. I think it is WAY easier to change a flat tire on a tractor than to doctor on a horse. First.. if a horse steps in a hole and gets away with only a bruise/strain.. he'll be outta work for a couple days. Also.. throwing a shoe can be devastating for a hoof. Sidewall and quarter cracks can also stall a horse for some time. Hoovs that have thrown shoes can't always be re-shoed immediatly, or at least without some new growth and trimming, or some special filler compound.
Lastly.. once you park your tractor.. it sets there. I can stall my horse.. or turn him out and in the morning find he's kicked the fence or stall wall and has swelling around the cannon bone or fet.. and again.. he's outta comission for days.. tractor is back in action as soon as the spair tire is on.. or the tubes changed..

( Secondly the cost of repairs bears no relationship to ruggedness or durability. Issues of demand and supply come into play here, well as complexity of design or compromises in manufacturing )

Generally.. complexity of design contributes to the high cost of a repair, and as I've seen.. the more complicated a piece of equipment is.. the easier it is to break.. and the more money it takes to glue it back together.

( while longevity is important in a design, it is not the only factor )

It is to MY wallet... I don't trade tractors in every two years to get the newest model with racing stripes.. etc. I want something that does the job and lasts.. and that is my primary purchase concern. ( I'm sure others feel differently )

( otherwise our machines will be designed to last forever )

Way back when.. equipment was designed for long term use. Machines were made to be easy to rebuild.. even by a farmer.. and even setting in the field... Parts were overdesigned to add durability.

Todays mindset is disposability.. and that includes tractors. For instance.. these tractors with plastic hoods.... I seriously doubt those plastic hoods will be here in 50 years.. add a few tree limbs or other debri hitting it and that number drops faster. I like a metal hood. In my dirt floor barn, I can beat a dent out and braze up a crack.. or weld a new section in.. hit it with filler and paint, and have it look oem. That's not gonna happen to a 50 year old plastic hood.. even if it did make it that long. Even looking at castings.. todays stuff just isn't made as durable. And it's not an engineering problem.. it is marketing. Manufacturers don't want to sell machines that last 50 years... they want to sell you more machines...

( Finally, at least for now, people downplay ease of use )
On the contrary.. I think the trend is pushing towards ergonomics. Looking at tractor designs thru history.. they are now 'easier' to use.. have mor eoptions ( and safety features ).. Many are specifically designed with operator comfort in mind. Hitech (expensive) hand controlls.. lots push button gadgets ( expensive / fragile ) etc addorn many modern tractor cabs.

I'm a tad old school.. I feel better with levers and manual valves and gear shifters... more feedback thru the operator controlls on the older less ergonomic machines.

Soundguy

MicroPilot · Sep 9, 2004

( ...I'm a tad old school.. I feel better with levers and manual valves and gear shifters... more feedback thru the operator controlls on the older less ergonomic machines.

Soundguy )

Is this LESS ergonomic? Machine feedback to operator is a very important feature. Do race cars have power steering?

I've used HST machines, and they are easy use (not that gears are hard to use, as someone else suggested), but I think they are, hmmmm, kind of boring to operate. That's just me though, I like all the levers and pedals on my tractor.

cowboydoc · Sep 9, 2004

Todays mindset is disposability 

Excellent post Soundguy. The only thing I'll add is that they are also becoming increasingly more complex and computerized so that only the dealers can work on them. Gone are the days that you can even hardly change a fuse without the dealer these days. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

slowrev · Sep 9, 2004

Good reply Soundguy,
"( while longevity is important in a design, it is not the only factor )

It is to MY wallet... I don't trade tractors in every two years to get the newest model with racing stripes.. etc. I want something that does the job and lasts.. and that is my primary purchase concern. ( I'm sure others feel differently )"

Me too!! I buy a tractor to keep.

Oh and by the way I forgot to mention my dislike of electronic controls on tractors, again for reliability and long life. Wait about 15 years and try to get electronic modules for your electronic tractor. I predict many sitting around for lack of a computer module. Just try to get modules for electronic items 10 years old from well known companies. Can be very difficult.
I am not electronic or tech phobic, have worked in Electronics, computers, servers, telecom since 1970.

Yes the more complicated something is the more downtime you will have, simple statistical reliability stuff.

Hydro's are easier to operate and I would consider one if I was buying a loader only tractor for close work, such as cleaning out a barn, or just using as a lawn mower.

They are also easy for people who have never driven a standard transmission, ie clutch challenged /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe that is the real attraction some have for Hydro's, clutchphobia !!!

dirtwhisperer · Sep 9, 2004

I think if we look at it objectively - the market demand is what is driving the complexity of the modern day CUT. Years ago - 99% of tractor use was by mechanically inclined individuals such as farmers /construction types who could and had to fix tractors in the field - so manfactures designed around that objective - Today a lot of the CUT market is driven by homeowners who desire a larger estate 2-10 acres and who are not knowledgeable of tractor mechanics and who DO desire all the conviences and bells and whistles of the modern CUT. Thus - to give the consumer what they want (i.e. - hydro trannys) the switch from easy maintenance to more complex mechanics in order to facilitate less complex operation has occured. And yes - to a farmer 20 years isn't nothing for a tractor - but to a resident who will almost certainly compare the tractor longevity to their automobile - 20 years will seem like a lifetime for them - and the manufactures know this !