General Motors

JerryG · Mar 29, 2006

The problem with Corvettes is that they have evolved into luxury land yachts. A luxury yacht is about as far from the heritage that they built in the 1960s as you can get.

gamble77 · Mar 29, 2006

I almost think their hands were forced in the "luxury" department...people that spend that kind of money on that type of car want the leather seats, AC, etc. The Corvette is still one of the best sports cars in the world and for the price is almost untouchable.

deerefan · Mar 29, 2006

The Corvette sets the performance standard everyone tries to meet or exceed...that has to say something. For instance, the new Z06 spanks the Viper, get near double the mileage, rides better and costs 20k less. History speaks for itself...the car would not have been around for 50+ years if it were a p.o.s.. My father is the original owner of a 1970 Stingray, 350hp 4 spd air car, numbers matching. I owe it to this car for starting what will be a life long love of the american muscle car.

Jagmandave · Mar 29, 2006

Toad Hill racing? Seems I remember you, where did you run?

ToadHill · Mar 29, 2006

Jagmandave: When I raced it was under the team name of Iron Mistress Racing. My wife gave it the name because she said I spent as much time with "it" as I would if I had a flesh and blood one. We raced at Nelson Ledges Ohio, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, Lime Rock, Pocono, and Mossport Canada. I can tell by your name that you fancy British cars, I got even with the wife several years ago and bought her a Jag.
By the way ToadHill is the name of my farm.

AndyM · Mar 29, 2006

I wonder which are the least productive -- Union workers or Government employees? 

That's an easy one, Dave... Government union workers!

If you notice, the only place where a union is able to be sucessful in 2006 is in the various levels of government-- anytime the union wants a raise, all the government has to do to give them what they want is raise taxes. There's an endless supply of money from taxpayers!

Bird · Mar 29, 2006

Let's not stray too far into politics with this thread please. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Government workers and union workers? I've personally known many of each and can guarantee there are both good and bad both places; just as can be said about other workers or people in general.

Jstpssng · Mar 29, 2006

( ...Government workers and union workers? ...)
One very big difference; if you work for the government everybody thinks they own you. Pros and cons to every job; yet the best perks of most state and federal jobs are the holiday/vacation schedule, and the retirement package.
Doesn't it seem an oxymoron if you want to attract qualified people, that your best benefit is what sends them home? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Bird · Mar 29, 2006

Good point. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

AndyM · Mar 30, 2006

Let's not stray too far into politics with this thread please. 

There was nothing meant to be political here. The point was, most companies that are publicly or privately held cannot support many of the benefits that unions are asking for (like $22 an hour to watch an injection molding machine and put the parts in a box). The only place unions are able to succeed is in certain levels of the government.

If companies need to save money and reduce staffing, they layoff. Many times in government, they raise taxes to cover their budgets.

Not always the case... just an observation. There are always exceptions.

Gatorboy · Mar 30, 2006

To me when at a union job and someone says, "Hey, slow down, you can't make too many widgets in one day or you'll screw up the quota" -- there is a productivity problem.

lrunge · Mar 30, 2006

"The only place unions are able to succeed is in certain levels of the government. "

How about major league baseball, football and basketball. Seems they have survived pretty well.

trkbldr · Mar 30, 2006

I wonder which are the least productive -- Union workers or Government employees?

You certainly paint with a broad brush Gatorboy. To label all union and government employees as "unproductive" is simply ludicrous. By no means am I a staunch union supporter. Quite frankly, I don't have much good to say about the one I am a member of. However, I do feel the the need to reply to your comment.
I work on the line in a truck assembly plant. Our current "line speed" is 84 trucks per hour. This is roughly 43 seconds per truck for me to complete my job. In that 43 seconds I have several tasks to complete. I must first obtain and install 4 "J" clips into the lower radiator support. Then I determine which is the proper part for this particular truck. This part must then be pulled from one of three containers which are behind me. The part is then positioned into place. I then obtain 4 bolts and fasten the part down using an air wrench. All this while the truck is moving along at that 84 per hour speed. During a typical shift we build 700 trucks. So that means that I will install 700 parts per shift using 2800 clips and 2800 bolts. This job has been time studied by the company and has a 56 minute per hour workload under ideal conditions. Think every truck is ideal? Think every clip slides right in? Think every bolt lines up perfectly with that clip? One problem that costs you 7 or 8 seconds and you have to work that much faster on the next several trucks to catch up. Do I sound "unproductive" to you still?
Are there unproductive people where I work? Absolutely. Are there "easy jobs" that pay the same as mine? Yep. But the vast majority of the people work as hard or harder than I do. The vast majority EARN every penny they get.
You can not blame the problems of the Big Three solely on the union. Management has to share in the blame. Although Bill Ford took no salary last year, his bonuses and stock options totaled over 20 MILLION. In his last year as head of Ford, Alex Trotman received over 70 MILLION in salary and bonuses. Jacque Nasser, who almost destroyed Ford, negotiated a golden parachute when he "retired" that pays him MILLIONS of dollars to be, shall we say, "unproductive".
Wish you could walk in my shoes one night Gatorboy. Maybe then you could see what it's like to be an unproductive union worker /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

scott_vt · Mar 30, 2006

Trkbldr,
You have my respect!!! Although I dont own a Ford, I still but American vehicles. The latest one was for my wife, 2006 Chevy Equinox, its a great vehicle that gets excellent milage. I drive a Dodge truck.

I cant relate directly to assembly line work, mostly because I have never done it. But I have been in the manufacturing enviroment 35 yrs , mostly as a toolmaker and or machinist. I know darn well there is nothing easy about what your doing!!!

I will continue to buy American whenever and wherever I can.

scotty

ps I hate outsorsing and what it does to our job force, whether it be automotive or other /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif We will all be affected in the long run.

Gatorboy · Mar 30, 2006

So I guess your answer is Government Employees?

deerefan · Mar 30, 2006

You see, Gatorboy, its rather simple...every line of work has lazy and hardworking folks. The hardworking folks usually end up taking the slack of the lazy folks. He sounds like a hard working fellow who works his tail off yet is frustrated b/c the guy next to him earns the same or more but puts forth far less effort. The problem w/ GM is exactly what you are doing...too much finger poiting and no one stepping up. Who cares if union workers or govt. workers are lazier? At this point, it does not really matter. People need to get off their duff, quit finger pointing, pick up a wrench and help their fellow man. If failure is the final outcome, no one can blame anyone because everyone tried to achieve a better out come. The sad thing is, this gentleman may end up losing his job, which can have further negative consequences on his life, while all the big wigs sit in their pretty mansions having no remorse that the folks who put them there are now jobless and possibly homeless. By the way, I'm neither union or government. Just a hard working fellow doing my part.

Gatorboy · Mar 30, 2006

( He sounds like a hard working fellow who works his tail off yet is frustrated b/c the guy next to him earns the same or more but puts forth far less effort. ) 

Now you are starting to see the problem with Unions.

trkbldr · Mar 30, 2006

So I guess your answer is Government Employees? 

I have never been a government employee nor do I personally know anyone who is. Therefore, rather than make assumptions and fall prey to the stereotyping of government employees, I do not feel qualified to answer in respect to their situation.

scott_vt · Mar 30, 2006

( ( He sounds like a hard working fellow who works his tail off yet is frustrated b/c the guy next to him earns the same or more but puts forth far less effort. ) 

Now you are starting to see the problem with Unions. )

Comon Dave,
Thats lame and you know it!!! I work directly with engineering , developing mailing office equipment. Are you telling me there are no slackers in the white collar community ??? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Huhh, I must have been blind for the last 35 years !!!

scotty

Gatorboy · Mar 30, 2006

( Are you telling me there are no slackers in the white collar community ??? ) 

No.

I'm saying White-collar Slacker is not making the same amount of money as White-collar Hardworker for salary is based on performance. White-collar slacker may even get the boot and be replaced by a new-hire for a much lower starting salary -- not the same as Hardworker who has been with the company for years even though they may be doing the same job.

Private Industry is geared on rewarding the hard working and getting rid of the deadwood -- where Union and Government jobs are geared towards keeping employees around with no worry (or very little) of getting fired.

Just because you find a few exceptions to the rule doesn't make this theory invalid.