Generator question

[sarti]

I know this is a tractor forum but I have a generator question and you folks seem pretty smart about things. I am going to buy a portable generator for my house and I would like to get propane(have a bulk tank for the house)
or tri fuel model. I noticed some models have idle control (alot more money)
Was wondering what pros and cons are and if the idle control is worth the extra money. The reason for propane is, I was without power for a week and got tired of fueling my small generator. I would like a larger one to run more of my house. THANKS

 

[Slamfire]

The idle feature saves fuel when the load is low. The dual fuel arrangement is a good solution, for long power outages, we once had a nine day outage during and ice storm. All the locals were out clearing the r.o.w. of down trees. You couldn't get down the mountain for gasoline and the only local supply ran dry. Of course, if your propane tank is low when the outage starts, you'd better have a wood stove for backup. It helps a whole lot to have a cord of wood on hand for such an event, and a wife who can cook on a wood stove.

 

[Buckeye_Jim]

I recommend you check out this link: Home Generator Systems, They have 7000 watt package deals which include a manual transfer panel with 11 circuits, remote manual start, propane, weather proof enclosure, etc., all for under $2,000.00. More expensive models have automatic start and automatic transfer from utility power.

Jim

 

[Phils]

For your use I'd think that the idle control isn't necessary. You will be using the generator to supply power for your needs during a power outage. If your needs aren't requiring power, turn the generator off. I wouldn't want a generator running (even at idle) if I didn't need the power.

As far as the rest of the purchase/install, PM me or post a thread with questions. I've been living off-grid for about 30 years and have learned much through trial-and-error about generators, inverters, solar power and batteries.

Phil

 

[George2615]

I have the idle feature on my Generator / welder. It works great to save fuel when I use it for welding or in the field when power tools are not running the engine idles down.

When used as a generator for backup power it never idles. If your buying one for backup power for your house you won't need the idle feature.

 

[QueBota]

The idle feature saves fuel when the load is low.

I have a 12K Coleman Powermate and the idle feature only allows it to idle when there is no load. If I plug in a worklight with a 40 watt bulb the generator comes off idle and runs at the same speed as when I am running the generator at full load. Don't know if they all work like that or not.

Dave

 

[Highbeam]

Not all eco-throttle, or idle down gennys work like that. The inverter type such as the uber popular honda eu2000i idles up as needed to meet the demands of the load. I think it has to do with whether the genset has an inverter to make the frequency or relies on revolutions. Our power in the US is supposed to be 60 cycles per second which is the same as 3600 rpm which is what the typical genset is running at while making power. The all or nothing type idle down gensets must be set up to always deliver 60 Hz to any load so unless there is zero load the genset must spin 3600, even for a light bulb.

If you are expecting this genset to spin up a big load like a heat pump or a welder then I propose that having the engine reved up to 3600 rpm at all times offers a flywheel effect and the ability of the genset to supply this huge power load cleanely and quickly is superior. The alternative is a lazily idling engine that gets hit with a huge whallop of full throttle and supplies low frequency power, low voltage, for as long as it takes the engine to rev up.

I vote for no idle-down on a home backup generator. I vote yes for an idle-down feature on a camping generator equipped with an inverter.

 

[Buckeye_Jim]

I have a 12K Coleman Powermate and the idle feature only allows it to idle when there is no load. If I plug in a worklight with a 40 watt bulb the generator comes off idle and runs at the same speed as when I am running the generator at full load. Don't know if they all work like that or not.

Dave

Some of the generators on the market are actually alternators producing DC and then generate the AC power with an inverter. The Honda EU series are this way. Very quiet. The motor RPM's increase with the load. In other generators (especially bigger ones) the RPM's are linked to the AC frequency (60 hertz in North America). 3600 RPM is 60 hertz. Sometimes they have a gearbox between the engine and generator such that the engine can run at 1200 RPM (less wear and tear on the motor, but losses in the gearbox).

Hope this helps some,

Jim

 

[CurlyDave]

I have a 12K Coleman Powermate and the idle feature only allows it to idle when there is no load. If I plug in a worklight with a 40 watt bulb the generator comes off idle and runs at the same speed as when I am running the generator at full load. Don't know if they all work like that or not.

My 15Kw (continuous) Generac works the same way.

No load, and I mean none at all, and it will idle. Even a very small load will make it run full out.

I have been considering adding an hour meter to it, but I am afraid even that load will cause it to run full out.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I know this is a tractor forum but I have a generator question and you folks seem pretty smart about things. I am going to buy a portable generator for my house and I would like to get propane(have a bulk tank for the house)
or tri fuel model. I noticed some models have idle control (alot more money)
Was wondering what pros and cons are and if the idle control is worth the extra money. The reason for propane is, I was without power for a week and got tired of fueling my small generator. I would like a larger one to run more of my house. THANKS

I've got a tri-fuel generator and love it. We have had some extended outages and not having to refill the gas tank has been a great feature.

One thing to keep in mind with tri-fuel generators is that they are often "rated" for output while using Gasoline. Propane has less energy than gas. So if you have a 10,000 watts tri-fuel generator and it is rated at 10,000 watts using gas, its output when running off your propane tank will likely be about 9,000 watts. If you run it off of Natural Gas, that contains even less energy than propane and needs to be downrated even further. That said, if you are buying a generator and size it based on your needs, based on the 'rated' output, you may need to UP SIZE your purchase to a slightly larger unit.

 

[Phils]

Guess I should add more to this thread:

I've had "tri-fuel" generators. I had them operate on propane only. After many hours of operation, the float and needle valve vibrate themselves to death. I learned to remove them both, plug all the vents, and keep the pieces in a safe place in case I ever wanted to revert to gasoline operation (it's never happened yet tho).

I wouldn't buy tri-fuel again unless a sale price was better than the propane only model.

Phil

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I've had "tri-fuel" generators. I had them operate on propane only. After many hours of operation, the float and needle valve vibrate themselves to death.

I've heard of this problem and similar problems when they are run exclusively on Propane or NG. I've also heard that the gasoline seems to lubricate(?) the float but the propane and NG don't and that is the problem?

I should probably have clarified my post, I often start mine using gasoline and then switch over to NG. In extreme cold weather it is easier to start on gasoline. I tend to run it out of gasoline and then switch it over to NG. This may be why mine has worked flawlessly for about 7 or 8 years? I also replace my battery every couple of years and I keep my battery hooked up to a "Battery Tender" so the electric start has plenty of battery power (but it does have recoil start as a back up).

 

[Steve_Miller]

Read http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/88800-generator-auto-idle-control-2.html#post1007920 some of this thread.

Steve

 

[Phils]

I thought of another issue that may/may not be relevent to sarti.

The last tri-fuel generator I had was powered by Briggs and Stratton. Within a year or two the valves began sticking open. Motors don't run very good when that happens.

It was powered by propane only. Propane & natural gas don't supply any lubrication to the valve stems like gasoline does. Bob's post reminded me.

After a couple of times that I removed the heads and cleaned the valve stems I installed an "oiler". These were used back in the 40's and 50's on autos. Basically it was a jar filled with Marvel Mystery Oil that had a hose connected to the intake manifold. The oil stopped the sticking valve problem.

For the frequent and extended usage I subject my generators to, I don't expect I'll ever get another B&S powered genset. My current 10K gen is Kohler powered and there's never been a sticking valve issue. I had over a decade on a Honda 5.5KW generator that I'd converted to propane and never had a valve problem with it either. The B&S engine died an ugly death when a rod let go.

Phil

 

[Slamfire]

Some of the generators on the market are actually alternators producing DC and then generate the AC power with an inverter. The Honda EU series are this way. Very quiet. The motor RPM's increase with the load. In other generators (especially bigger ones) the RPM's are linked to the AC frequency (60 hertz in North America). 3600 RPM is 60 hertz. Sometimes they have a gearbox between the engine and generator such that the engine can run at 1200 RPM (less wear and tear on the motor, but losses in the gearbox).

Hope this helps some,

Jim

I'm havin' a bit of trouble with the concept of a dc producin' alternator. The standard alternator design naturally produces alternatin' current, hence the name. DC output comes from generators, doesn't it?

 

[dubba]

'm havin' a bit of trouble with the concept of a dc producin' alternator. The standard alternator design naturally produces alternatin' current, hence the name. DC output comes from generators, doesn't it?

Yes an alternator does produce alternating current. Most car type alternators have a recitfier bridge in the back of them which uses diodes to convert the A/C to D/C.

 

[CurlyDave]

Some of the generators on the market are actually alternators producing DC and then generate the AC power with an inverter. The Honda EU series are this way. Very quiet. The motor RPM's increase with the load.

The problem with the Honda EUs (and imitators) is that they are very expensive for the kW produced, and they only come in three sizes, 1 kW, 2 kW, and 3 kW.

Even the 3 kW version is pretty small for a whole-house emergency generator. They are primarily intended for camping and RV use, where the feature of being very quiet is worth a lot.

Sure, you can gang them together to increase output, but the cost gets up there pretty quick.

For me, an emergency generator is just that -- something to use in emergencies. It turns a power outage from an "emergency" into an "abnormal condition". If I use one for 200 hours over the next 10 years, that will be very high usage.

I don't need super quiet, and I don't need long life, what I do need is a lot of kW for the initial cost, and an electric starter.

Fuel economy is a red herring for the most common uses. Even if it drinks a full gallon per hour, 200 gallons @ $3.00 each, is $600 over 10 years.

Fuel availability is the big issue. The only reason to get a tri-fuel unit is to use a fuel, natural gas or propane, which is already available at your house for another purpose.

Think a bit about the cost of a tri-fuel generator vs. the cost of a gasoline unit and storing gasoline.

For me, the gasoline was a lower-cost solution, with advantages of being able to use stored fuel somewhere else, and being able to take the generator to a remote part of my property and use it there.

 

[sarti]

Thanks for all the help, I think I'll look into the tri-fuel without the the
Auto-idle. All propane would work for me also.

 

[kenmac]

Guess I should add more to this thread:

I've had "tri-fuel" generators. I had them operate on propane only. After many hours of operation, the float and needle valve vibrate themselves to death.


Why wouldn't they vibrate themselves to death on gasoline ? The only problem that I've heard/read was ,If you didn't have an over head valve engine that the valves needed lubrication. Overhead valve engines shouldn't be affected.Ive never heard/read anything as it relates to the float in the carb.

 

[Phils]

Why wouldn't they vibrate themselves to death on gasoline ?

I could only speculate that not having a liquid in the bowl to "cushion" them would be "why".

I only discovered the excessive wear on them when disassembling the unit because of the sticking valve situation. And because there's a bowl vent, when the bowl is empty of gasoline that vent is a direct vacuum leak to the intake albeit small.

Phil