Diamondpilot
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2007
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- 16,316
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- Daleville, IN
- Tractor
- Jinma 254/284 Ford 861 Powermaster at work
Geo-Thermal heat pumps
- Thread starter Scotty370
- Start date
- Views: 16297
forester2
Gold Member
The pond systems i've seen do not pump water out of the pond but put a closed loop coil into the pond. I remeber looking at 2 company web sites who also discussed price of system but can't recall their names. Believe one was in Minn. and another in Ind.
galen1115
Member
Just to give you an idea Kfan, the water flow to the geo is around 4-6 gal a min. The best thing I can recommend to you is to have a professional geo dealer come out and do a complete study of the house. It will take in consideration the windows r factor of the walls and ceiling. Then you will know the load you have. All are different. Always get at least two estimates. And to address Forester, unless the pond is a deep pond or you are in a more moderate area of the country a shallow pond will not give you your moneys worth. It would be great for summer cooling but would be lacking in the winter if it was to ice over. My wife really complains if the house gets below 70 at night. When we retire she keeps bring up the deep south. :confused2:
eepete
Platinum Member
buckeyefarmer: Here's a shot of the flow center that the 3 and 5 ton Water Furnace E-Series heat pump use. At each heat pump there are valves used to set the flow to each unit. The other ground loop runs another 3 ton unit, and it only has 1 pump motor instead of 2. Pumps are labeled as 377 watts each.
That software sounds pretty good. You know more about this than I do, and those were great examples. I hope the cost of these systems comes down in time, I think it was expensive because not many people use it.
One problem my HVAC guy had: when he measured the ground loops with a distance measuring wheel, he should have added about 5% to account for the extra distance you see due to "wheel bounce" on the grass. When he got done rolling out the 600' pipe, there was about 25' left that just got coiled on the manifold pit. Not enough to warrant stopping the work and bringing the excavator back. Of course, that might just be me wanting to squeeze every last percent out of a system.
And here are pictures of the horizontal trench going in, the crowded manifold pit with the extra pipe, filling in and the site supervisor. I hear everyone likes pictures....
Pete
That software sounds pretty good. You know more about this than I do, and those were great examples. I hope the cost of these systems comes down in time, I think it was expensive because not many people use it.
One problem my HVAC guy had: when he measured the ground loops with a distance measuring wheel, he should have added about 5% to account for the extra distance you see due to "wheel bounce" on the grass. When he got done rolling out the 600' pipe, there was about 25' left that just got coiled on the manifold pit. Not enough to warrant stopping the work and bringing the excavator back. Of course, that might just be me wanting to squeeze every last percent out of a system.
And here are pictures of the horizontal trench going in, the crowded manifold pit with the extra pipe, filling in and the site supervisor. I hear everyone likes pictures....
Pete
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eepete
Platinum Member
Found shots of the pond system (closed loop) going in, so here are more pix
The loops are left intact with some spacers, put on a PVC frame. The manifold is put on the frame. Since there is no water in there, just air, it floats and gets pulled out into the pond. Then, once in position, the loop is filled and it sinks. There were some cinder block tied on to help hold it it place once it sank.
The pond loop is cheaper to install because there is no digging. There is a little savings on labor because the pipe doesn't have to be rolled out, but it's very little, just a few hours. There is still all the "welding" (heat plastic so it fuses to make connections) for the manifold, and the additional time hit of the frame, positioning, and the like. For a half day, it does take more people (4) than a ground loop (2).
Anyway, this should give folks some idea of what these two types of systems look like when they are going in. Oh yeah, check for yellow jacket nest before the crew shows up. Failure to do so can cause a small delay of game.
Pete
The loops are left intact with some spacers, put on a PVC frame. The manifold is put on the frame. Since there is no water in there, just air, it floats and gets pulled out into the pond. Then, once in position, the loop is filled and it sinks. There were some cinder block tied on to help hold it it place once it sank.
The pond loop is cheaper to install because there is no digging. There is a little savings on labor because the pipe doesn't have to be rolled out, but it's very little, just a few hours. There is still all the "welding" (heat plastic so it fuses to make connections) for the manifold, and the additional time hit of the frame, positioning, and the like. For a half day, it does take more people (4) than a ground loop (2).
Anyway, this should give folks some idea of what these two types of systems look like when they are going in. Oh yeah, check for yellow jacket nest before the crew shows up. Failure to do so can cause a small delay of game.
Pete
Attachments
buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
eepete, thanks for the great pictures, especially the last one showing the supervisor. I am IGSHPA certified, so I have a good bit of info at my disposal.
You show a great example of the reverse return that's required to ensure equal flow in all the loops, note the color coding on the pipes where the header is fused together. Once the weather gets a little better outside I will be tearing up my yard. I originally designed mine for a 2 pipe trench, but due to the length of the digs, I have changed to the slinky. It will require a wider 3' trench, but each one about 100' long. I also decided to header inside, bring each loop thru the wall into the basement, in order to purge with the loop pump, instead of renting or buying a flush cart. I will be able to turn each loop off individually if I want.
I pass near your way when I go to Durham NC, I go down Rt 86 and hit I40 below Hillsborough.
You show a great example of the reverse return that's required to ensure equal flow in all the loops, note the color coding on the pipes where the header is fused together. Once the weather gets a little better outside I will be tearing up my yard. I originally designed mine for a 2 pipe trench, but due to the length of the digs, I have changed to the slinky. It will require a wider 3' trench, but each one about 100' long. I also decided to header inside, bring each loop thru the wall into the basement, in order to purge with the loop pump, instead of renting or buying a flush cart. I will be able to turn each loop off individually if I want.
I pass near your way when I go to Durham NC, I go down Rt 86 and hit I40 below Hillsborough.
eepete
Platinum Member
psj12: Here's a wide shot of the yard this fall, before I started the tractor garage project. You can see the lines from the trenches because the grass isn't well established. Then, there's a shot taken today. You can see the shadow of the new garage. You can see where I took dirt from the cut and fill operation for the garage and put it in the last of the depressions from the trenches. Next step is to level it with a box blade, till it, then (if I get the next attachment) land plane it smooth.
It takes a year for everythingto settle, and you have to keep filling it. Good excuse to get a FEL.
buckeyfarmer: I learned about ponds vs. ground loops in this area the hard way, but it was all very interesting. Glad you like the pix, they should help others understand the process. Yeah, you're just a few miles away. 36 05.365 79 09.695
Pete
It takes a year for everythingto settle, and you have to keep filling it. Good excuse to get a FEL
.buckeyfarmer: I learned about ponds vs. ground loops in this area the hard way, but it was all very interesting. Glad you like the pix, they should help others understand the process. Yeah, you're just a few miles away. 36 05.365 79 09.695
Pete
Attachments
Wow, Pete, your installation sure looks a lot neater than mine! Guess 24 years of R&D have made a difference.... here's a shot of mine.
For those interested, it's a 3-1/2 ton system, closed loop (down the well hole), pumping 8-1/2 gpm via two Grundfos in series. Flowmeter is above the 2 pumps, wrapped in Armaflex to reduce sweating. The two lines going up the side of the stairs cross the ceiling and run to DHW. For you HVAC guys-- the HP control is on the line from the DHW heat exchanger; the lower line's from the desuperheater.
Just out of sight behind grandson's head are two shut-offs for the ground loop, which exits the house along the floor under the stairs.
I did my own ductwork (fiberglass ductboard), and made it oversize a bit to lower air velocity. In heating, I get 17-19 degrees TD at the air coil; when it's REALLY cold, I fire up the woodstove, which is about 6' away from the heat pump --directly behind me as I took the pic. Note the non-ducted return-- this seemed to work quite well, so I just left it that way. Makes it easier to see how dirty the filter's getting!
For those interested, it's a 3-1/2 ton system, closed loop (down the well hole), pumping 8-1/2 gpm via two Grundfos in series. Flowmeter is above the 2 pumps, wrapped in Armaflex to reduce sweating. The two lines going up the side of the stairs cross the ceiling and run to DHW. For you HVAC guys-- the HP control is on the line from the DHW heat exchanger; the lower line's from the desuperheater.
Just out of sight behind grandson's head are two shut-offs for the ground loop, which exits the house along the floor under the stairs.
I did my own ductwork (fiberglass ductboard), and made it oversize a bit to lower air velocity. In heating, I get 17-19 degrees TD at the air coil; when it's REALLY cold, I fire up the woodstove, which is about 6' away from the heat pump --directly behind me as I took the pic. Note the non-ducted return-- this seemed to work quite well, so I just left it that way. Makes it easier to see how dirty the filter's getting!
Attachments
doxford jim
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,004
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada
- Tractor
- 1959 MF-65 sold, 2007 Jinma 554 diesel.
Hi Everyone,
I have been reading this thread with interest. I purchased my property six years ago (almost) and it has a Waterfurnace Geo unit, working on an inground fixed loop system.
Since the system was already installed I don't know the design criteria or the cost - the previous owner never came through with supplying household documents etc. and has since died, so I am SOL. However, my experiences might be of some use to anyone considering such a unit.
The system has pipes buried 8ft down and I think my unit is a 5 ton. I live in Canada where the ambient temperatures vary from -45C/F in winter through to 100+F or 40C in the summer on occasion. The house is well insulated with thicker than 6"studs - closer to 8". There is double glazing but only 5/8" gap between panes (sealed units) I think. I have installed an extra window either outside, covering whole unit (plexiglass) or plastic sheet inside house. This greatly reduces futher heat loss. I keep the house at a steady 70F and heat individual rooms as needed - main bedroom is over the garage and needs a little more heat and use a fan heater as needed.
As the system was already installed, I can only guess on the cost - at around $15,000. Previously heating was done with propane, so the bulk of the ductwork was already installed. I use the propane furnace as a back up in the event that the geo unit breaks down - and it has three times, once fan motor speed control and second time printed circuit board, third time starter capacitor.
The geo unit is adequate for the house even in -45F weather, just. The cost has averaged $240 a month for electricity (heat, light, water etc.). When using propane in same temps. a 100lb bottle costs $85 a refill in my area and last just one week if lucky. So for propane heat for one month would be around $340 plus the cost of electricity - which would bring it up to at least $400 a month.
So, you can see quite a differenece between the two systems, running cost wise.
The negative side for the geo system is the power source - you need a reliable and steady electrical supply. Where I live there are numerous power outages in winter - especially during heavy snowfalls. I am fortunate in that I have a dedicated 12kW diesel back up generator, that gives me 100amp service. When there is a power failure I just change over and fire it up and carry on as normal.
The genset was already installed when I bought the place, but never run properly - I had to rerun fuel supply, install proper ventilation etc. The gen set runs at 2 hours for one gallon diesel and supplies the household needs for heating etc. Expensive but does allow for freedom from outages.
The other real negative is the cost of repairs and parts. Most repairs I have been able to do,though the start capacitor stumped me (shoulda known it) and for a quick visit to my place for the HVAC guy plus one capacitor and one start relay $450 OUCH! So, if considering a geothermal unit installation, repairs and maintenance need to be factored in. My unit is around 13 years old, so there was no warranty coverage.
Plus side, great heating and cooling (A/C) during our short summer. Virtually maintenance free - cleaning heat exchanger coil and ducting regularly, keeps dust accumulation down. Definitely very economical for me over electric or propane heat.
Hope this helps - at least some real world figures to compare with.
Cheers
Jim
I have been reading this thread with interest. I purchased my property six years ago (almost) and it has a Waterfurnace Geo unit, working on an inground fixed loop system.
Since the system was already installed I don't know the design criteria or the cost - the previous owner never came through with supplying household documents etc. and has since died, so I am SOL. However, my experiences might be of some use to anyone considering such a unit.
The system has pipes buried 8ft down and I think my unit is a 5 ton. I live in Canada where the ambient temperatures vary from -45C/F in winter through to 100+F or 40C in the summer on occasion. The house is well insulated with thicker than 6"studs - closer to 8". There is double glazing but only 5/8" gap between panes (sealed units) I think. I have installed an extra window either outside, covering whole unit (plexiglass) or plastic sheet inside house. This greatly reduces futher heat loss. I keep the house at a steady 70F and heat individual rooms as needed - main bedroom is over the garage and needs a little more heat and use a fan heater as needed.
As the system was already installed, I can only guess on the cost - at around $15,000. Previously heating was done with propane, so the bulk of the ductwork was already installed. I use the propane furnace as a back up in the event that the geo unit breaks down - and it has three times, once fan motor speed control and second time printed circuit board, third time starter capacitor.
The geo unit is adequate for the house even in -45F weather, just. The cost has averaged $240 a month for electricity (heat, light, water etc.). When using propane in same temps. a 100lb bottle costs $85 a refill in my area and last just one week if lucky. So for propane heat for one month would be around $340 plus the cost of electricity - which would bring it up to at least $400 a month.
So, you can see quite a differenece between the two systems, running cost wise.
The negative side for the geo system is the power source - you need a reliable and steady electrical supply. Where I live there are numerous power outages in winter - especially during heavy snowfalls. I am fortunate in that I have a dedicated 12kW diesel back up generator, that gives me 100amp service. When there is a power failure I just change over and fire it up and carry on as normal.
The genset was already installed when I bought the place, but never run properly - I had to rerun fuel supply, install proper ventilation etc. The gen set runs at 2 hours for one gallon diesel and supplies the household needs for heating etc. Expensive but does allow for freedom from outages.
The other real negative is the cost of repairs and parts. Most repairs I have been able to do,though the start capacitor stumped me (shoulda known it) and for a quick visit to my place for the HVAC guy plus one capacitor and one start relay $450 OUCH! So, if considering a geothermal unit installation, repairs and maintenance need to be factored in. My unit is around 13 years old, so there was no warranty coverage.
Plus side, great heating and cooling (A/C) during our short summer. Virtually maintenance free - cleaning heat exchanger coil and ducting regularly, keeps dust accumulation down. Definitely very economical for me over electric or propane heat.
Hope this helps - at least some real world figures to compare with.
Cheers
Jim