Geo-Thermal heat pumps

[doxford jim]

This is good information for me on what to look out for in the future for repairs. The previous owner installed the Water Furnace system when he built this house in 1999. He said it cost $14,000 in 1999. This is our fourth winter here. I didn't even know what geothermal was until we moved here. I am very impressed with it. It turned out to be the best feature of this house. It's quiet, clean, and (so far) almost maintenance free. I think it may be the best heating/cooling system available at present. The major considerations would be the initial cost. I did some research and the system we have that was installed in 1999 for $14,000 would cost $22,000 these days. And, as you mentioned, the power required in an emergency. We have a portable generator and a pellet stove for back up heat. No way that a pellet stove is going to work in your -45F temps. Our heating/cooling averages $65.00 a month. How in the world can you guys stand -45F? Scares me to think about it. The repair costs you describe do not seem to be that much more than the old fuel oil system we had where we lived before.

I wouldn't think about -45F - these are very rare temperatures but do happen. I am lucky that my system works OK down to -42F that I know for sure. I stall have the propane furnace if the gas would still boil off at that temperature.

The replaced fan motor you talk of - was it the one with the square controller box hanging on the end of the motor? You can't buy them any more and have togo with the nex generation motor - this has a round speed controller box that mounts at end of the motor. I think they were around $800 complete (Candian $). The new PCB was $450 Canadian - so these repairs all add up.

I don't know if I would buy a new one for an itial install as they are so expensive. I am sure that extra insulation and the third window pane (storm window) would give a great return on investment also - outside of the usual double glazed windows. Just my thoughts on this - nothing to back them up really.

Jim

 

[doxford jim]

You're having better luck than I do with my 2.5 year old Water Furnace units. One had a freon leak ($350 to fill), then went flat again so changed out the evaporator ($250, HVAC guy says "they don't pay enough to me for my labor under the warranty"), now another unit just got freon ($350 again) and I suspect in about 6 months will need a new evaporator. They couldn't find a leak, so this is a dance they do (with my paying for the expensive fiddlers) so they can put in new coils.

Someone in management is busy cost reducing the product's coils. When this is done I'll be at $1200 in repairs on units not even 3 years old. Keep this in mind when you're told about the "fabulous 10 year warranty" on the units.

They work well, the installation is good, it's just a bit much $$s .

Pete

Pete,

What you have said don't sound right at all. You can do your own leak check with just soapy water and a spray bottle or paint brush. Just coat everything with the soapy water - especially valves and silver soldered joints etc. Where there is a leak, the gas will blow bubbles and you should see it. Evaporators just don't go like that - methinks this HVAC tech is having you on.

I would also contact WaterFurnace and explain what was said and done. I am sure this HVAC will change his mind and work approach afterwards. This man is basically trashing WaterFurnace and I am sure they would appreciate knowing about it.

Jim

 

[eepete]

What I don't know is something like this: If a unit takes a year to leak down, can you find that leak with the soap bubble approach?

I sent the tech an email. He used a sniffer to find the leak, so perhaps the problem is a sniffer needs a more substantial leak than a soap bubble approach? I'm ready to go take a refrigeration class at the community collage. One of the guys on the fire department is in HVAC. Then I can check pressures on my own, add freon, and do diagnostics. I'd call the tech when I have a confirmed problem and need the warranty work.
We also have 2 new Water Furnace dealers in the area, but from another person I know with a system they don't like to work on anything they didn't install. And people wonder why brand loyalty doesn't exist any more...

And then there is plan B. I'm working on home automation stuff. I've got the temperature sensors I need to measure the air in and out of the unit, freon temps at the compressor, after it gets cool, and at the input and output of the evaporator coil in the unit. Through the magic of software, you tell the system that the heat pump is charged correctly and it builds up an internal table of the units "envelope" based on a multiple number of input parameters. This would allow you to detect freon leaks way before they were a problem. The key is the automatic calibration of the system. It's probably easier for me to write the code than mess with gauges... Should be a good feature, but I suspect a lot of people won't pay the $400 or so it would cost to install it into a system. I would think the ability on even a standard heat pump to know you were having freon problems when it was 80 degrees out instead of waiting for failure at 95 degrees out would be a win.

I'll see what the tech says. If I have more problems with this unit I'll do the soap water spray thing. Do you think that's a good idea to do now while it's correctly charged?

Pete

 

[doxford jim]

What I don't know is something like this: If a unit takes a year to leak down, can you find that leak with the soap bubble approach?


I'll see what the tech says. If I have more problems with this unit I'll do the soap water spray thing. Do you think that's a good idea to do now while it's correctly charged?

Pete

Hi Pete,

Yes I think you will find the leak if you use soapy water. Another way of checking for leaks is using a halide torch - like a hand held propane torch. You use a small flame and when the freon is found the flame goes from bllue to green. Soapy water is a pretty good way of checking for leaks.

Unless you have problems, I would think twice about calling that HVAC techie - he has an agenda and that be making pots of money, in my opinion. Given what he has said and done, I would definately be sending a complaint letter to WaterFurnace about both the quality of workmanship and their warranty work. It seems like the HVAC wants to just change out evaps when there probably is no need to. Evaporators don't normall fail that quickly unless there is a fault in the manufacture/installation or the tech caused it??? In normal usage a frig system, a/c unit, heat pump etc., if properly built and installed, should go for well in excess of ten years without refilling.

Either way, you spent a lot of money for their system - with a ten year warranty, so don't be shy - tell'em what you think. Also mention about using the internet and that your problems are being discussed worldwide - that should get their attention

Anytime is a good time to check for leaks using the soap and water test.Very small leaks will show readily by the bubble of small bubbles, growing larger. Don't be afraid to do it - it won't bite ya! Just make sure you have the unit switched off first.

Cheers

Jim

 

[eepete]

Jim, you talked me into it. I'll give it a try. I can identify the various parts of the system (know just enough to be dangerous on the mechanical side).

I'll focus on the problem 1st, then deal with the non technical part...

tnx!

Pete

 

[irvingj]

Pete, you might just be able to go by a local HVAC supply house and pick up a bottle of "soapy" leak detector; while soapy water will also work, the commercially-available solutions are really soapy and quite thick, to stay in place.... they even come with a cotton-ball applicator in the cap, in a small bottle.

I agree 100% with doxford jim-- you should get in touch with Water Furnace!

Doxford-- I've been out of the field long enough... do the torches/heated copper work with the new refrigerants? (Are the new ones halide?) I'm still on R-22 (monchloro-difluoromethane) in my old system; have no idea what the new ones are. Thanks.

 

[Stimw]

Easiest soapy solution to make is about 1/4 dish soap, 3/4 water in a spray bottle. I keep one mixed up in my shop because I am always checking tires on my equipment. I hate tubeless tires on equipment!
Didn't they quit making those torch freon leak detectors because burning freon is poisonous?

 

[doxford jim]

Doxford-- I've been out of the field long enough... do the torches/heated copper work with the new refrigerants? (Are the new ones halide?) I'm still on R-22 (monchloro-difluoromethane) in my old system; have no idea what the new ones are. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Hi,

I am not a HVAC techie - I worked at sea for many years as C/E and learnt enough of the basics to get me through a lot of awkward times.

As far as I know, the halide lamps should work with the newer gases - I know they are good for CFC and HCFC and can detect down to 20 ppm. I still see them advertised for sale for detection of refrig. gases, so I guess they must be good.

Cheers

Jim

 

[WF_Inc]

eepete,

We have read your comments regarding the concerns you have with your WaterFurnace unit. Please provide the model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor so that we may look into your concerns further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

 

[GT2]

eepete,

We have read your comments regarding the concerns you have with your WaterFurnace unit. Please provide the model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor so that we may look into your concerns further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Holy cow, does tractor bynet have pull or what!!:thumbsup: