Geothermal heat pump: first winter results

[MacLawn]

daves, how long ago ye have it done? That is a great price!

 

[dstig1]

I originally thought I would go Geo for our new house, but everything I was reading indicated that it would not pay off. I believe that a lot now looking at where we are and what a (slightly) more conventional system cost. From what I can see, all the installers jack their prices to account for the tax rebates, so in essence they get it instead of you. Strike 1. Maintenance seems extreme with these a lot of times, though some have had good luck. Strike 2. I heard Econar went out of business suddenly during the crash. They had been around forever, and the bandwagon had gotten huge on this as there was so much buzz about it. That didn't make sense. Strike 3. In the end I realized it was far simpler to put in a natural gas fired on demand water heater for our radiant than to mess with Geo. In my shop I put in a ~90% unit - that was about $1200 total. The radiant tubing and manifold stuff is the same no matter what you do. In our house I went with a more efficient 96% on-demand unit. That was maybe $400-500 more. You can't even come close in the payoff with Geo. Think about how many years it will take to make up the capital cost of Geo with that base cost difference. My 3 bad gas bills were in the $250 range this winter, and that includes an 80x32' shop kept at 60 and a 3500 sf house kept at 65 or so. Both well-insulated.

Think about it and run some numbers before you submit to the Collective. Geo sounds good, but I found the numbers just don't work out. If you believe otherwise, feel free to shoot holes. I will answer to the best I can. No agenda, just what I found to be the case.

 

[s219]

I originally thought I would go Geo for our new house, but everything I was reading indicated that it would not pay off. I believe that a lot now looking at where we are and what a (slightly) more conventional system cost. From what I can see, all the installers jack their prices to account for the tax rebates, so in essence they get it instead of you. Strike 1. Maintenance seems extreme with these a lot of times, though some have had good luck. Strike 2. I heard Econar went out of business suddenly during the crash. They had been around forever, and the bandwagon had gotten huge on this as there was so much buzz about it. That didn't make sense. Strike 3. In the end I realized it was far simpler to put in a natural gas fired on demand water heater for our radiant than to mess with Geo. In my shop I put in a ~90% unit - that was about $1200 total. The radiant tubing and manifold stuff is the same no matter what you do. In our house I went with a more efficient 96% on-demand unit. That was maybe $400-500 more. You can't even come close in the payoff with Geo. Think about how many years it will take to make up the capital cost of Geo with that base cost difference. My 3 bad gas bills were in the $250 range this winter, and that includes an 80x32' shop kept at 60 and a 3500 sf house kept at 65 or so. Both well-insulated.

Think about it and run some numbers before you submit to the Collective. Geo sounds good, but I found the numbers just don't work out. If you believe otherwise, feel free to shoot holes. I will answer to the best I can. No agenda, just what I found to be the case.

We put geo in our new house, and the tax credit covered about 80% of the difference in cost compared to dual AC/heat pump units. I believe we have already recovered most of the cost difference in just two years, as the heating/cooling cost per square foot for the new house is approximately 2/3 of the old house (slightly bigger house but lower bills -- pretty cool). Obviously, insulation and windows also contributes to that, so it's hard to say how much is due to geo. The new house has 6" walls and spray foam insulation plus better windows, compared to 4" conventional insulation and inferior windows in the old house. However, the new house also has almost three times the number of windows compared the old place, so that cancels some of the benefit. Qualitatively, we are a lot more comfortable in the new house with a dual zone setup than the old single zone house (which should have been dual zone for sure). We keep the thermostat at 68F nights / 71F days in winter, and 72F nights / 74F days in summer.

Anyway, in our case, the math was simple and I expect we will have paid off the price difference by year 3. There is such a dramatic drop in our utility bills that I am easily saving $100-200 per month compared to the old house and that adds up fast. And the better overall quality of the heating/cooling is a plus.

Not sure why maintenance would be higher for geo in your opinion -- I would think just the opposite when comparing to the analogous heat pump system with an outside air-based exchanger.

 

[fishheadbob]

Pencil pushing is a mandatory first step in determining if geothermal will work for you. If you have access to relatively cheap natural gas or other heat source you may want to avoid it. I don't have access to natural gas, my electricity is expensive, and propane can fluctuate wildly. After wearing out my body with 40 years of making and burning 20 or so cords of firewood, geo worked just fine for me. It's not the answer for everybody.

 

[Country Geek]

There are other advantages to geothermal, they may not justify the price difference but they are nice bonuses, like the hot water boost and no outside compressor/fan unit grinding away during your summer BBQs.

In my case, my state (NC) also provides a tax credit, 35%, so that really helps with the pencil-out. Naturally install costs are higher here than MacLawn quotes, you're definitely splitting the tax credits with the installer if not giving most or all of them to him. Whatever, what matters is the bottom line and in my case the capital cost with credits was within a couple of $k of a conventional system, and I already saved $1k on heat this past winter so payback is pretty quick.

And echoing fishheadbob, in rural areas natural gas is a rarity. If it were available to me it would be a no-brainer. But it isn't. Getting out of dealing with the price swings, semi-scrupulous semi-reliable dealers, and supply issues with propane is worth a good chunk of the premium for geo as well!

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I put in two geothermal units myself for around $15K. A 3 ton and a 2 ton, with slinkies. I was quoted over $20K to have one unit put in, that's why I did it myself.

I initially estimated a 5 yr payback. It's hard to calculate payback because when I bought heating oil previously, I spent anywhere from $600 to $1400 per yr, as the price changed and as weather varies. My electric is more with the geothermal, so I think it might take slightly longer than 5 yrs. I used 3651 more KWH in 2014 than in 2013, and 4290 more kwh in 2013 than in 2012 when I turned on my first unit. However, my total energy costs which include electric/oil/pellets was lower last yr than several of the previous yrs. Last winter was a lot colder than normal, and last summer was warmer than usual. When I look at the average kwh used pre geothermal and with geothermal, i'm using 6361 more kwh with geo than before, or a 44% increase. Another variable, is I added more SF to my house about the same time, so that messes with the comparison.

 

[eth555]

We just got through our second winter on Geothermal, Waterfurnace unit and could not be happier. Savings have been great, we had an old fuel oil furnace and an outdoor boiler prior (we burned corn, wood pellets and solid wood). My payback was 5-7 years depending on propane prices; not that propane is cheaper it is probably closer to the 7 year mark, depending on future price. We are keeping the house warmer and we have a whole house humidifier so it is more comfortable now than before. No maintenance other than filters; and should have payback within the 10 year parts and labor warranty. This is much better than keeping the out door boiler going or having fuel or LP delivered every few weeks.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

I have two water furnace units one in the house and one in the shop, both on horizontal loops. The one in the shop I bought used 12 years ago and it was 4 years old at the time. I have never had an issue at all! It makes hot and chilled water use separate air handler with water coil for forced air, and a water heater for the buffer tank for the in floor heat. The unit in the house was pricey bought that new, it makes the forced air and hot water for domestic and in floor in one unit. last year the compressor took a dump and just prior to that the reversing valve went. About $2,000 repair. If i had to do over I would use unit just like the shop in the house and use a standard forced air furnace as the air handler and back up heat. The all in one unit to complicated and for the savings not worth the money. (house unit compared to shop) I am happy with the water furnace unit, when the compressor went down was able to get replacement 3 days for a unit going on 15 years old.

 

[dodge man]

We had our geo put in last year, I think its a 4 ton unit, after the tax credits, it was about 13k as I recall. The directional bored the lines in, it still tore up the yard, but just in one place. The cost savings depends on your other available sources. If you have natural gas available, the savings will be less. We were using propane so the savings for us will pay off in about 5 years, maybe less.

 

[davesl708]

daves, how long ago ye have it done? That is a great price!

I installed mine in fall of 2011.

Others were cheaper but the warranty and service made the difference.