Geothermal heat pump: first winter results

[davesl708]

I originally thought I would go Geo for our new house, but everything I was reading indicated that it would not pay off. I believe that a lot now looking at where we are and what a (slightly) more conventional system cost. From what I can see, all the installers jack their prices to account for the tax rebates, so in essence they get it instead of you. Strike 1. Maintenance seems extreme with these a lot of times, though some have had good luck. Strike 2. I heard Econar went out of business suddenly during the crash. They had been around forever, and the bandwagon had gotten huge on this as there was so much buzz about it. That didn't make sense. Strike 3. In the end I realized it was far simpler to put in a natural gas fired on demand water heater for our radiant than to mess with Geo. In my shop I put in a ~90% unit - that was about $1200 total. The radiant tubing and manifold stuff is the same no matter what you do. In our house I went with a more efficient 96% on-demand unit. That was maybe $400-500 more. You can't even come close in the payoff with Geo. Think about how many years it will take to make up the capital cost of Geo with that base cost difference. My 3 bad gas bills were in the $250 range this winter, and that includes an 80x32' shop kept at 60 and a 3500 sf house kept at 65 or so. Both well-insulated.

Think about it and run some numbers before you submit to the Collective. Geo sounds good, but I found the numbers just don't work out. If you believe otherwise, feel free to shoot holes. I will answer to the best I can. No agenda, just what I found to be the case.

My utility cost dropped $200 per month in winter and $100 per month in summer. I also don't have to pay just to have NG hooked up. That saves $300 per year with no usage. Total electric gave me a rate reduction as well. Per my utility company my average cost per day is $3.07. That include a large hot tub that runs 24/7/365.

 

[techman]

I have had my geo since '05. Two units, 2 and 1 1/2 ton units, both Climate Master. My use dropped about 10,000 KWH/year. Cost is more difficult as my electric rate has gone from $ 0.06/kwh when it was installed to around $ 0.13/kwh since that year. My electric cost dropped for a couple of years but has crept back up offsetting the savings. I guess I would be paying much more today. I added 9 KW of PV about 4 years ago and I now pay an annual average of $ 100/mo. for an all electric, 3000 sq ft home with 4 adults (3 at home all day).

This past winter was the first year since the install that backup heat came on. Not on very much, but it was likely due to a brutally cold winter this past year with many nights near or below zero.

New systems should see a 5%-10% improvement in geo efficiency over a couple of years as the soil packs more tightly around the tubing.

Paul

 

[MacLawn]

Oh me, about the time I think I'm understanding geothermal better, a few of y'all boys done got me head spinning again! Thanks daves in Kansas! You're a lot colder than me here in Georgia, down here, cooling is about as important as heating! I use air conditioning May - September at least. Some in October too. No natural gas here for heat - boys, this is the Rural Living forum.

dstig, you said to shoot a hole, okay, I don't understand what you said about maintenance. I thought geo has fewer moving parts to wear out? Pipes are underground with no problems there, right? I've calculated I'll save about $80 per month with geothermal vs our current heat pump. Which has had $2,000 of repairs since it was installed 12 years ago! Plus, we don't feel warm in winter with it. I'm not just looking at monthly savings, I also want more comfort and reliability.

Having lived in Japan over 25 years, where the so called mini split units were born, I know about them. Love them, but it takes so many to heat/cool a house! Ductless, right, which means you need a wall unit in each room! Even my bathroom and closets have ducts! I've installed those myself in our houses in Japan, very familiar with those.

Okay boys, what am I missing now? Whew, this is confusing.

 

[fordmantpw]

Just do it. You'll be glad you did!

As far as comfortable goes, we still use a blanket when sitting on the couch...in the summer.

I will say, the air coming out of the vents in the winter is not hot like with a gas furnace. It's warm, but it keeps the temperature consistent in the house.

 

[japody]

Mac - although there are a few naysayers here, overall the experience has been good. Myself included. Yes it was more expensive initially, but with a payback period of about 8 years, I figure it was worth it for the comfort and peace of mind knowing that I would have a system that will work for a long time. Good luck with your decision.

 

[MacLawn]

Thanks, fordman and japody. I've researched geothermal since before I got present Carrier Puron unit in '03, and this is first I've read any negatives about them, except for the ridiculously high initial cost. I spent $6,000 having this unit installed, $2,000 in repairs, plus, the thing has leaked condensate since it was new! Water all under new oak hardwood floor just last summer!

Oh, and forget gas for me. All we could get here is propane - no thanks! Used to have it, no more.

 

[japody]

Don't forget to factor in the tax credits when doing your calculations. 30% federal and I see GA has lesser of 35% or $2000.

 

[fordmantpw]

Thanks, fordman and japody. I've researched geothermal since before I got present Carrier Puron unit in '03, and this is first I've read any negatives about them, except for the ridiculously high initial cost. I spent $6,000 having this unit installed, $2,000 in repairs, plus, the thing has leaked condensate since it was new! Water all under new oak hardwood floor just last summer!

Oh, and forget gas for me. All we could get here is propane - no thanks! Used to have it, no more.

We put a geothermal unit in our house back in '11 to replace the aging gas/central A/C unit. We sold that house this past November and recouped the entire additional cost of the geothermal unit when we sold it. When we were planning our new home, we KNEW we were going geothermal again. Yes, it is expensive upfront, but there are so many positives and very few negatives. I love the fact that it is quiet. I love the even temperature in the house. I love how there is no unit outside making noise. I love the fact that I don't have to have a CO detector in the house and don't have to worry about gas leaks. I love that I can turn it up a degree and feel that I don't have to worry about it costing me an extra arm this month to heat the house. I love the fact that it just works. You don't have to think about it. Well, I find it fun to check my 'intelligent' thermostat and see how much it cost to heat or cool the house that day. My parents have had a Water Furnace unit for close to 20 years. I think they have spent maybe $200 in maintenance when a part went out. They are just dead-nuts reliable.

Oh, and did I mention that it is quiet?

If I lived in the areas where it was extremely cold for extended periods of time in the winter, I probably would not go geo. I would do wood or pellet heat. However, you are going to need A/C more than heat, so I think you will be super-pleased with the geo.

Oh, on another note, supposedly geo does a better job of dehumidifying the air in the summer as well.

 

[japody]

...and don't forget the added benefit of the desuperheater!

 

[fordmantpw]

Definitely! Free hot water is awesome! If you go with geothermal and have room, make sure you put in a second water heater. It doesn't have to be wired, just plumbed in as a storage tank for the unit to heat the water.