Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures.

   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #11  
My geo units do well in the cold, but you are really cold. Last year Jan-Feb was our coldest month. The average temp was 24 deg F (about -4C). My daily electric was 108 KWH. That is total electric, so it includes DHW, lights, cooking, washing, drying, entertainment, etc. My daily on an annual average basis is 57 KWH/day. We keep the house at 70 deg year round.

So if you are total electric, you really do not look that bad. I too have a horizontal loop system around 6-7' deep

If you know the water and air temp you can find the COP for your unit. KW in times the COP equals KW of heat out.

Paul
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #12  
I live ion New Brunswick, Canada too. Yeah, it gets mighty cold here for about two months a year, sumtimes four
My electricity costs 10.25 cents per KWH. My house is 1500 sq ft with sames si8uze basement (unheated, uninsulated)

My house is R20 walls R40 ceilings, modern thermal windows doors. My monthtly consumption averages 1100KWH

With taxes and other charges, my total energy bill is 290 per month, includes all uses of electricity, clothes dryer, hot water, well pump, stove and oven, lights and all. Say 3600 per year. When I used oil forced air furnace it was 6500 per year just for oil, and another 100 for electricity per month, 650 per month all in= 7800 per year.

Ergo geothermal saves me 4200 per year. Easy math, actual math, nothing hard to figger there.

Jix

PS If I insulated the basement, I estimate it would save me about another 1000 per year. that idea is in my capital budget for when I win the lottery ha ha. Fixed income sucks!
I keep my house temp at 74*f 24/7 365. I run an open loop geothermal heat pump (4-TON)..no aux heat whatso ever is ever used, nor needed. House is never cold, nor drafty :cool2::cool2:
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #13  
Are you heating the basement? If so, what is the foundation and what sort of insulation do you have there?
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Yes, the basement is heated and warm air also goes into the blocked off garage where we keep the temperature to around 54F, as it is used to store veggies etc. The house and basement are approximately the same temperature - basement slightly cooler in the summer as the cool air sinks. Basement walls are concrete and around 12" thick that I can tell, maybe slightly less. I bought the house as is and was not told of any other insulation in the basement. The attic has pink FG around 12" thick through out.

Yes, my electricity costs currently are : a standing charge for daily rate, 1305 kWh @ $0.07520/kWh, remainder kWh at $0.11270/kWh plus a rate rider of 5% plus taxes.

The electricity used is for everything - geothermal, hot water, lights, cooking, clothes dryer etc., so there are no surprises with other bills. Summer bills are very good and can be as low as $150 for two months and winter bills can be as much as $600+ for two months. It all depends on the weather we get of course.

I am finding the different comparisons interesting. I note the R2000 house has excellent power bill - much less than what I have to pay.

Last night the outside temperatures here climbed to -36C/-25F and it made the heating work hard.

Thanks
Thanks
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #15  
I have a post & beam SIP house that incorporates 10" of white "bead-board" styrofoam between exterior sheathing and interior T&G pine board or 5/8" sheetrock. It came with a 2-ton water-source (what we used to call them) hand-made heat pump, using a closed-loop system down the well hole. That unit finally died after 23 years, and we replaced it with a 2-1/2 ton Water Furnace unit.

I haven't done power calculations for quite some time, but my house is only around 1800 sq ft, with open stairs and a non-ducted return; last time I checked, however, my heating costs were running between one-half and one-third of folks who heat with oil or propane.

Unit is located in the basement (concrete), which has blue-board styrofoam of 2" on the upper half, 1" down to the footings, and I believe 2" under the floor slab. Many windows have already been replaced, but I currently have no storms on the outside of the south & west-facing double-hungs (need to rectify that soon!); windows that face east and north are low-E casements, and there are two Velux skylights in the downstairs and three in the loft peak, plus one in a bedroom. Several of those have also been replaced; house is now 28 years old.

We had some problems with critters getting into the styrofoam at the roof peaks, so I know the insulation isn't as good as it used to be, and most likely the house isn't as tight as it was when it was built. The house also came with a HRV (heat recovery ventilator), which works very well.

My old unit, on a good day, would have a 16 degree delta T across the air coil. It also had both a desuperheater as well as a refrigerant-to-water condensing unit, so it would make some hot water no matter what it was doing, but could also function as a hot water generator on its own. It actually took heat from the house and put it into DHW during AC, a real plus.

The new Water Furnace has a desuperheater (but no electric back-up heat resistance coils), but cannot make hot water on its own. It also has decided that, during AC mode, there isn't sufficient head pressure to make hot water using the desuperheater. Bummer. It also has a manual lockout on the freeze-stat in the water coil, so if the loop gets too cold, the ^%$ thing shuts off -- and stays off. Not sure whose brain fart that was. (My old one was auto-reset.) As a result, when temps get below +10 and it runs quite a bit, I fire up my wood stove, which is located near the heat pump in the basement, to give the heat pump a break and make sure the water loop doesn't get too cold. I generally run 71F on the t-stat year round; I don't like the cold much, either.

Currently, all "hidden" charges included, we're paying around 16 cents per KWH (and it's going up).

What I do know, however, is:
1) the Water Furnace heat pump generally runs a 20+ degree delta T across the air coil
2) basement temps settle, without wood stove, around 68F; old one would see 62-65F
3) the WF heat pump uses under 10 amps as opposed to my old one which was 12+ amps (and that was for a 2-ton unit vs. current 2-1/2 ton)
4) the WF heat pump is HUGELY quieter than my old one

So, overall, I like it, with some reservations. It's certainly far more efficient than my old one (which had a COP of approx. 3.25, new one is around 4.5) Guess one of these days I should look at energy use again. Our house is also all-electric- stove, washer/dryer, etc. Use no oil and no gas.
ijk


house- south.JPGhouse-north.JPGDSC03270.JPG
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #16  
What model of WF you using? My Synergy model has a 100 amp heat pump breaker (due to the Aux heat I believe) & the command breaker is 60 Amp (fan, etc)//synergy is the 3 in 1 model. Running amps are obviously much lower as long as aux heat doesn't kick in. My unit also makes tons of hot water when using AC so I tell my wife not to worry/don't notice much of a bill increase when we use the AC (mainly at night when it gets muggy). The fan on our unit is an infinitely variable DC unit, so very quiet & low cost to run - we tend to put it on circ around 4 pm until we go to bed, or if we have the airtight fireplace going, to even out the temps in the house//on a sunny day the main floor & upstairs get much warmer than the basement.
Have never had an issue with the heat coil getting too cold - not sure what that is all about.
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures.
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Thanks for the other comparisons - makes for an interesting thread, at least for me anyway.

I mistakenly said yesterday, that I didn't know if the basement was insulated. I was wrong, the whole basement walls have 2x4 studding, insulation and drywall on them. Duh - a senior moment eh ! So, yes, I am sure that helps with the temperatures.
I keep the fan on recirculating and the unit automatically speeds up when needed, to increase the inside temps.

I haven't thought to check the temperatures of the heat transfer fluids (in and out of unit) so will check them today. I have just done a quick check by feeling the temperature difference to date.

The windows of the house are double glazed (1/2" gap) but at the temperatures we get, not very efficient. I have installed some storm windows (third pane) made from lexan I had, on the outside of the window frame. This gives me about a 2' - 2 1/2" stagnant air gap and improves that windows efficiency no end. Only three windows like that so far. Six other windows have the plastic film on the inside of the window frame inside the house. This does help reduce heat loss but is no where near as good as the outside extra pane. I have two more to install when the outside temperatures moderate a bit, currently -29C/-21F !!!!!

Yesterday's power used was 110 kWh for the 24 hour period. I check my readings at noon each day as it is the most convenient for me.

I will see if I can dig up the manual for the WF model I have.

Thanks

jim
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #18  
If you're noticing a difference around the windows, you probably have an insulation/vapor barrier issue. On a lot of older houses, there is a lot of air leakage which obviously drives up the cost of heating the house - you could pull the trim off the windows and insulate/seal - likely better than an extra pane/plastic.
I have double pane casement windows and don't notice any air leakage even during wind storms/nor'easters - when the house was tested the technician said we had the equivalent of a 1 cm diameter hole for leakage//turning the stove fan on created a negative pressure/tightest house he had even seen. As such, we need to run the HRV all the time or open windows (or both).
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
bcjmmac,

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. The house was built in 1969.

I installed a decent window ledge in one window and had to remove the trim to do a proper job. As you guessed, I had air leakage coming into the house around the window frame. Went around that one window with spray foam and solved the leakage for that one window. Went outside and noticed some foam had found its way to outside of the vinyl trim. I think you have hit the nail on the head with that observation. I guess I will need to go around each window and do the same thing and seal with spray foam. Gonna be a busy summer for me with the work that is piling up :-(
 
   / Geothermal heating system and extreme temperatures. #20  
I mistakenly said yesterday, that I didn't know if the basement was insulated. I was wrong, the whole basement walls have 2x4 studding, insulation and drywall on them. Duh - a senior moment eh ! So, yes, I am sure that helps with the temperatures.
I keep the fan on recirculating and the unit automatically speeds up when needed, to increase the inside temps.

jim

The reason I asked about basement insulation was due to the fact that the standard 8" poured concrete wall only has a total R value of about '1'! :eek:
So I would hazard a guess you don't have enough insulation in your basement.
 

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