Getting rid of a lawn

[rswyan]

Note for accuracy: That MSDS is from LV400 2,4-D, a roundup clone, not roundup itself.

Well for accuracy's sake, 2,4-D is not a Roundup clone.

2,4-D is a broadleaf herbicide, often used for controlling weeds in lawns, pastures, etc.

Roundup is a non-selective herbicide, that generally kills everything you put it on.

Ya probably really wouldn't want to mix the two up.

 

[whitetiger]

Well for accuracy's sake, 2,4-D is not a Roundup clone.

2,4-D is a broadleaf herbicide, often used for controlling weeds in lawns, pastures, etc.

Roundup is a non-selective herbicide, that generally kills everything you put it on.

Ya probably really wouldn't want to mix the two up.

But, the base of Round Up is 2-4D. The have just modifyed it.

 

[redlevel]

Work with nature and help us all live a long heathy life.

I hope when you get an infection that you "work with nature" and don't use any of those nasty old antibiotics. When you have dental work, I am sure that you "work with nature" and don't use any novacaine. Be sure that you insist that school officials "work with nature" and don't immunize your children against childhood diseases.

 

[rswyan]

But, the base of Round Up is 2-4D. The have just modifyed it.

Where did you hear this from ?

Do you have a source that you can reference for that statement ?

Although I'm not a chemist, from looking at the chemical makeup of both compounds, they appear to be entirely unrelated .....

Glyphosate is an analogue of the amino acid glycine and 2,4-D is phenoxy compound.

 

[whodat90]

Roundup/Glyphosate "Facts" and Facts
Yup, sorry. You're right, they're only slightly related. The MSDS for roundup itself says :
Acute oral toxicity
Rat, LD50 (limit test): > 5,000 mg/kg body weight
Other effects: breathing difficulty, decreased activity, soft stools
Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.
No mortality.

Acute dermal toxicity
Rat, LD50 (limit test): > 5,000 mg/kg body weight
Target organs/systems : None.
Other effects: None.
Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.
No mortality.

Acute inhalation toxicity
Rat, LC50, 4 hours, aerosol: 2.6 mg/L
Target organs/systems : None.
Other effects: breathing difficulty, decreased activity, local effects
Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.

Skin irritation
Rabbit 6 animals, OECD 404 test
Days to heal: 1
Primary Irritation Index (PII): 0.4/8.0
Other effects: None.
Essentially non irritating.
FIFRA category IV.

Eye irritation
Rabbit 6 animals , OECD 405 test
Days to heal: 10
Moderate irritation.
FIFRA category II.

Skin sensitization
Guinea pig, Buehler test Positive incidence: 0 %

EXPERIENCE WITH HUMAN EXPOSURE
Ingestion, short term. case report(s):
Gastro-intestinal effects: irritation, nausea/vomiting, diarrhea

Ingestion, short term:
Respiratory effects: increased fluid in lungs (lung/pulmonary oedema)
Cardiovascular effects: decreased blood pressure (hypotension)

Similar formulation

Acute oral toxicity

Rat, LD50: 5,000 mg/kg body weight
Slightly toxic. FIFRA category III.

Acute dermal toxicity

Rabbit LD50 (limit test): > 5,000 mg/kg body weight
Practically non-toxic. FIFRA category IV. No mortality.
Skin irritation

Rabbit 6 animals, OECD 404 test
Days to heal: 3
Primary Irritation Index (PII): 1.0/8.0
Slight irritation.
FIFRA category IV.

Eye irritation
Rabbit 6 animals , OECD 405 test
Days to heal: > 21
Other effects: pannus, tissue destruction in eye (necrosis of conjunctivae)
Severe irritation. FIFRA category I.

Acute inhalation toxicity

Rat, LC50, 4 hours, aerosol: 3.28 mg/L
Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.
Skin sensitization
Guinea pig, 9-induction Buehler test
Positive incidence: 0 "/o

EXPERIENCE WITH HUMAN EXPOSURE
Ingestion, excessive, intentional misuse:
Respiratory effects: pneumonitis (aspiration)
Gastro-intestinal effects: nausea/vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, bloody vomiting (haematemesis)
Cardiovascular effects: abnormal heart rhythm (cardiac dysrhythmia), decreased heart output (myocardial depression)
General/systemic effects: disturbances of fluid and electrolyte regulation, abnormally decreased blood volume (hypovolaemia), elevated serum amylase, fluid loss (haemoconcentration), no cholinesterase inhibition
Laboratory effects -blood chemistry: elevated serum transaminases, mild acidosis
Eve contact short term. epidemiological:
Note: No cases of irreversible eye effects could be attributed to glyphosate formulations in an extensive epidemiological survey of reported accidental eye contact with these formulations.


Nothing about cancer that I can see.

 

[rswyan]

Yup, sorry. You're right, they're only slightly related.

The only relationship that I can see is that they act somewhat similarly - in that both 2,4-D and glyphosate are post-emergent, fairly broad spectrum, systemic herbicides.

This link should clear up the history of both:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicide

And this link on the page you referenced might provide an alternative view (other than Monsanto's) as to the possibility of whether there is any reason to be concerned about health effects from Roundup:

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Roundup-Glyphosate-Factsheet-Cox.htm

2,4-D is classed as Class I (the highest toxicity) by the EPA because of it's known hazards - way higher than Roundup, which is Class IV, supposedly the least toxic. (That doesn't mean it's food however )

Nothing about cancer that I can see.

Googling "Roundup" or "2,4-D" and "cancer" ought to give ya a pile of info to browse. Or read the attached pdf.

Anyone remember 2,4,5-T .... one of the components in Agent Orange ..... used in Vietnam to defoliate the jungle ? If I had to guess it was probably proclaimed "safe" by the guvmint too.

Having said all that, I do use both - in my mind there's no doubt that exposure to either probably ain't real good for ya. I try to limit it as much as possible.

As far as any ridicule someone for wanting stick with natural solutions, I guess whatever floats your boat. Me, I'd prefer cow poop and leaf mold over man-made chemicals any day. I don't use Roundup or 2,4-D in the garden - only Rotenone as a natural pesticide.

And yes, I try to avoid antibiotics whenever I can (even the medical community thinks they've been over prescribed and incorrectly used - which has lessened their effectiveness - to the point that when we really need them they may be ineffective), and the last time I went to the dentist (to have a tooth removed) I skipped the novocaine, and neither of our children were immunized until we absolutely had to - when they went from private to public schools - and even then we opt'ed for the minimum we could get away with. (Research the links between vaccination and autism and you might understand why.) Our oldest is 25 and the youngest will turn 20 on his next birthday - both turned out just fine.

 

[whodat90]

Guess it's a matter of your sourced vs. mine more than anything else. I did google 'roundup cancer' and found a bunch of links, primarily to anti-pesticide websites. The PDF you posted is interesting, but the website that it's from is once again anti-pesticide. Nothing personal, but they're not exactly an unbiased source. I'll have to stick with the EPA (Great Lakes Environment: Greenacres-Wild Ones Handbook) and the MSDS. One link I found though was a wikipedia entry, which states:
Roundup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US Environmental Protection Agency, the EC Health and Consumer Protection Directorate, and the UN World Health Organization have all independently concluded that glyphosate is not carcinogenic. Despite this, opponents of glyphosate-based pesticides frequently claim that glyphosate is linked to cancer, citing the research of Hardell and Eriksson (Cancer 1999 85:1353–1360). Although this paper showed a link between glyphosate and lymphoma, this link was not statistically significant and was within the realm of random variation. The authors themselves concluded "definite conclusions cannot be drawn for separate chemicals, such as MCPA and glyphosate, from the multivariate analysis".

Opponents also claim that Roundup has been found to cause genetic damage, citing the research of Peluso et al (Environ Molec Mutag 31:55–59). The authors concluded that the damage was "not related to the active ingredient, the isopropylammonium salt of glyphosate, but to another component of the herbicide mixture".

The toxicity of Roundup has been questioned, not so much because of its active agent (glyphosate) but because of the inactive ingredients, including the surfactant polyoxy-ethyleneamine (POEA) [1]. These components are responsible for "acute" toxicity to humans such as eye irritation. Ingestion of Roundup has been proven to cause diarrhea following extremely high exposures. . Glyphosate was also reported to kill fish at concentrations of 10 parts per million (WHO, UNEP & ILO, 1994).

Roundup has also been found by researchers at Texas Tech University to disrupt the expression of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) which has a role in testosterone production in males [2].




As for the ridicule, not I sir. Go with what works for you. I personally prefer to use natural products when they work effectively, and in fact last year had about 6 tons of horse poop in my garden. Of course, everything died but that's beside the point. I simply am stating my opinion on the best way to remove a grass turf area and prepare it for other uses based on my experiences having done it both with killing and tilling and tilling alone.

 

[schmism]

im going with cover with old carpet, then till

 

[whodat90]

im going with cover with old carpet, then till

You may be alright with old carpet, but new carpets cause cancer.
http://www.tryorganics.com/voc's.htm

 

[newtarheel]

There's too much argument going on about the chemicals. And, since I'm no chemist, both sides seem to make sense. Therefore, I'm not gonna Roundup. And since I'm retired and have no deadlines (except for the Big One), I'm going to till and till and till and see what happens.
Now, what I need to to do is remove the Woods BH70X backhoe that I have on my B7800 and replace it with the tiller. The Woods manual is vague. And I don't want the thing to fall on my head. Anybody know where I can get info on how to do it?