GFCI circuts?

[Green_in_MI]

I don't see anything new in what the inspector is telling you with either the lights of the GFI circuits. And I don't see where a light by a door is a waste at all. I have always wired it that way, I just presumed it was code.

But, what is code and why are they written the way they are? Some will say it's to protect you and future users. What I am told by my electrician friends is that the code is written the way it is now because the supply side of the industry wants to sell parts. The story as related to me is that years ago the code was written by members of the installation side of the industry(electricians). Today the code writers are the big supply houses who are in it for selling parts. The difference in the code from past years is mostly in the volume of parts required on a job ie; GFIs, lights by doors, etc. In their code update classes they looked at the code authors from years ago and compared it to today. Electricians versus suppliers. I don't know this stuff firsthand its just what my electrical buds tell me. Maybe Inspector 507 can shed some light on the history of codes.

The wiring today is probably safer but it is also much more expensive. Bottom line with me is that I do what the inspector says right away with enthusiasm, because it will be over and done with a lot sooner.

 

[Inspector507]

Green,
Some inspectors ask for way beyond the code, they think they're god. Believe me, they're not. I will only turn down a job with code book in hand after common sense has had it's run. And I have 16 inspectors (15 of which feel the way I do) that need to follow that same thinking.
The NEC® was originally a code written by insurance underwriters. Now, the code making panels are made up of such a divers group of people it would amaze you. Engineers, designers, installers(both union and non), suppliers, power suppliers, etc.

 

[beenthere]

And you know it is the nature of the beast - we could have the most perfect code on the books, except the code writers would then be "out of work" so to speak. So they come up with new ideas every year to keep adding to the code for a number of reasons. It is not that it wasn't a perfect code to begin with, but to show activity the only way is make a change.

My own experience was with a local inspector a year ago, and had to do with installing a service (200 amp) in a new attached garage. The inspector said there had to be a disconnect within 10' of the meter on the side of the house. Well I had that covered as the service would be just on the opposite side of the wall the meter was on. Then I was told the service, because it was in the garage, had to be protected with drywall and that I had to have a door made of drywall in front of the service for fire protection.
Now the disconnect was (according to inspector) so the firemen would know that they could find it withing 10 feet of the meter. Okay. Now, the drywall was so a fire in the garage wouldn't melt down the service, at least right away. But the drywall door hides the disconnect from the firemen. It looks like a cupboard door. Conflicting codes that render the purposes useless, IMO. I'm not sure why anyone cares if the service entrance melts down because of a fire. It wont be on my priority list if there is a fire in the garage. I am more concerned about the telephone line staying intact long enough for me to phone 911. I don't think their was anything in the code about phone wires (yet anyway! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif)

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

What a different experience you had than me. I put new electrical service into a pole building and there was no mention of GFCI or any lighitng whatsoever. Of course, I did install lights but never did anything with GFCI's and probably should have. Since my roof appears to be more decorative than functional, I think I may just go ahead and install those for my own safety now that it's been mentioned.

I bought a sodium light with a photocell for the front gable which should give me enough outdoor lighting to find my way to the building. Again, no one insisted on it. I just thought it would be a good idea.

As to a separate light by your service door I think you can buy one under $10 so it's hardly a big deal. I'm putting up a couple of those just because they'll give me more and better light where I need it right at the entrance.

I don't think he's asking for anything extreme or extraordinary and, besides that, there's nothing on his list that's overly expensive or that doesn't stand to help you at some point. Good luck with your project. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Jerry,
I was thinking more about the way the AFCI available today work, as opposed to the goodness of the idea behind them. If they were as good as the manufacters claim then fine. As I see it, they afford little more protection and a lot more nuisance tripping than the conventional breaker at 10 times the cost. If the same circuit had the addition of GFI, you could have as good or better circuit protection than the AFCI at a lower price. The only part of the AFCI performance that is new is series arc detection, but as implemented requires a ground current of 30 to 50 mA to operate and trip at current levels much higher than the existing 15 to 20 amp breaker . GFI could just as well detect the ground current and a whole lot faster with less nuisance tripping. What is needed is a true series arc detector which doesn't require the ground current. For my bucks AFCI isn't here yet.

I don't have any AFCI in my home and doubt I would put any in with the current performance I see. If any become available that will detect a true series arc (hot or neutral, with no ground i.e. lamp cord) at a 15-20 Amp level I would certainly start upgrading.

What am I missing here? I certainly respect your opinon.

 

[Inspector507]

TWINKLE TOES,
From what I know about the AFCI, there are several different ways an AFCI works.
First they are the standard Over-current Protective device. They will trip at the 15 or 20A level of load applied to the circuit.
Second they will detect a series arc at levels of 75A and above. Keep in mind thats fault current. And that meets the UL1669 Standard.
Third they detect line to ground arcing at the 5A level. One manufacturer claims to detect the arc at the 50ma level.

Hope this gives a little more insight to the AFCI.

Jerry