slydog
Gold Member
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- 1955 Ford 640
I was asking because your location says Winn Parish. My FIL is buriend in Winnsboro. My wife is from Monroe.
Give me your welding experiences
- Thread starter Mith
- Start date
- Views: 18991
Steve,
Your MIG question has already been correctly answered. To get a MIG that would handle 1/2 material you would need to lay out some big bucks.
As for which welder is best. Thats kind of like asking which truck or tractor is best, I say John Deere and Dick goes with Ford. Me, I put the big 3 in this order. Lincoln, Hobart, and Miller. as far as AC/DC machines go. I do suggest you spend the extra money and get a AC/DC machine. If you plan on welding fence then you might look at the self-contained machines, unless you already have a good size generator. The SC machines have 110v outlets as well as 220v outlets for your grinders, lights, etc. Good ones start at about 600.00 - 1000.00 and have a 5-8 KW generator.
You started out asking about a buzz-box. but pipe fence is not normally did with them, unless you have a portable power source.
When buying tools I always follow this advice that someone gave me. "Figure out which tool I need and can afford, and then buy the one above it." That way only 10% of time do I later wish I had gotten a better one. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hope that gets
JD
Your MIG question has already been correctly answered. To get a MIG that would handle 1/2 material you would need to lay out some big bucks.
As for which welder is best. Thats kind of like asking which truck or tractor is best, I say John Deere and Dick goes with Ford. Me, I put the big 3 in this order. Lincoln, Hobart, and Miller. as far as AC/DC machines go. I do suggest you spend the extra money and get a AC/DC machine. If you plan on welding fence then you might look at the self-contained machines, unless you already have a good size generator. The SC machines have 110v outlets as well as 220v outlets for your grinders, lights, etc. Good ones start at about 600.00 - 1000.00 and have a 5-8 KW generator.
You started out asking about a buzz-box. but pipe fence is not normally did with them, unless you have a portable power source.
When buying tools I always follow this advice that someone gave me. "Figure out which tool I need and can afford, and then buy the one above it." That way only 10% of time do I later wish I had gotten a better one. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hope that gets
JD
MMM
Platinum Member
Winnsboro is close to Glenn9643 TBNer from Monroe. I've been there a time or 2 duck hunting.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( what is out o' position )</font>
Purt near anywelding that ain't flat- uphill overhead, etc DC is king for this because 5/5 heat is contained in work where AC is 1/2 & 1/2
Straight polarity is DCEN (Elec-,)For better penetration where 5/8 heat is on work, 3/8 on rod
Reverse Polarity is DCEP(Elec+) which is vice versa. Better for thin material
AC welder current flows back and forth from rod to work and tends to cause some inclusions and porosity, a bit more spatter and a faster deposit rate
Some say learn with AC and you can weld anything. I think it's better to learn with DC because it's a more controlled rod burn and you don't get to goin so fast you're not paying attention to what you're leaving behind. I found that a lot of problems stem from guys trying to get from point A to B instead of watching the puddle. I learned with DC and was quite fustrated first time I tried AC.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( what is out o' position )</font>
Purt near anywelding that ain't flat- uphill overhead, etc DC is king for this because 5/5 heat is contained in work where AC is 1/2 & 1/2
Straight polarity is DCEN (Elec-,)For better penetration where 5/8 heat is on work, 3/8 on rod
Reverse Polarity is DCEP(Elec+) which is vice versa. Better for thin material
AC welder current flows back and forth from rod to work and tends to cause some inclusions and porosity, a bit more spatter and a faster deposit rate
Some say learn with AC and you can weld anything. I think it's better to learn with DC because it's a more controlled rod burn and you don't get to goin so fast you're not paying attention to what you're leaving behind. I found that a lot of problems stem from guys trying to get from point A to B instead of watching the puddle. I learned with DC and was quite fustrated first time I tried AC.
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
The most common mistake a I see rookies make when welding with me is moving too fast.
I guess it's about burning a hole. Well, burning a hole is real close to do doing it right. In fact it's closer to doing it right than the bead skipping like a stone on a pond to make a kid smile.
If you're burning a hole you're moving just a smidgen slow. If you're not burning a hole, slow down. Slow down until you're afraid you're going to burn a hole. Slow down just a little more and you should be just about right.
After all, if you're not melting metal you're not welding.
There's an old weldor outside of Sulphur Springs. He used to be my neighbor. Older'n water, more difficult than mud to get along with, but he could fill a hole if he could step across it. And the only things he couldn't fix was a broken heart and the crack of dawn. He's waiting for the right rod to come along I'm sure and those will be nothing too.
His machine is an old, old, old, Miller buzz box. I've never seen nothing like it. And my first Thunderbolt was purchased in the middle seventies. I figure it's a fifties or sixties model.
He uses farmer's friend exclusively, E6013. If you think you can control a puddle grab some 6013 and do an uphill. That's about three times harder'n doing a 6013 downhill without slag inclusions which is comparable to ice skating barefoot and not getting your feet cold.
Walter's first a weldor. He's done all the processes, taught most of them. In fact he was one of the first to go through Hobart's plant to learn how to mig.
And he does just fine with what most farmers and lot of good fabricators on a budget use. So you don't have to go out and get an Idealarc from Lincoln or the Miller Dialarc like I have. They make things easier if you're having to do different kinds of welding for a living.
The wonderful thing about working with steel is you can compensate for lack of equipment up to a point with time and effort. In fact some of the prettiest and neatest stuff you'll ever see in iron is made in shops using equipment comparable to that of the nineteenth century.
If you're on a budget and you want to do some fabricating you've got two choices. Mig or stick. You can buy a small stick machine and do just about anything with it. It takes more skill initially to get started. But after that learning curve the skill required to do good work is the same. So the initial learning curve is the only real difference beyond ease of clean up after welding.
So buying a mig because it's easier to use seems to me like buying a car with an automatic transmission because you think learning to shift is too intimidating. Whether you're shifting or it's happening automatically the big thing is learning to control a vehicle.
I guess it's about burning a hole. Well, burning a hole is real close to do doing it right. In fact it's closer to doing it right than the bead skipping like a stone on a pond to make a kid smile.
If you're burning a hole you're moving just a smidgen slow. If you're not burning a hole, slow down. Slow down until you're afraid you're going to burn a hole. Slow down just a little more and you should be just about right.
After all, if you're not melting metal you're not welding.
There's an old weldor outside of Sulphur Springs. He used to be my neighbor. Older'n water, more difficult than mud to get along with, but he could fill a hole if he could step across it. And the only things he couldn't fix was a broken heart and the crack of dawn. He's waiting for the right rod to come along I'm sure and those will be nothing too.
His machine is an old, old, old, Miller buzz box. I've never seen nothing like it. And my first Thunderbolt was purchased in the middle seventies. I figure it's a fifties or sixties model.
He uses farmer's friend exclusively, E6013. If you think you can control a puddle grab some 6013 and do an uphill. That's about three times harder'n doing a 6013 downhill without slag inclusions which is comparable to ice skating barefoot and not getting your feet cold.
Walter's first a weldor. He's done all the processes, taught most of them. In fact he was one of the first to go through Hobart's plant to learn how to mig.
And he does just fine with what most farmers and lot of good fabricators on a budget use. So you don't have to go out and get an Idealarc from Lincoln or the Miller Dialarc like I have. They make things easier if you're having to do different kinds of welding for a living.
The wonderful thing about working with steel is you can compensate for lack of equipment up to a point with time and effort. In fact some of the prettiest and neatest stuff you'll ever see in iron is made in shops using equipment comparable to that of the nineteenth century.
If you're on a budget and you want to do some fabricating you've got two choices. Mig or stick. You can buy a small stick machine and do just about anything with it. It takes more skill initially to get started. But after that learning curve the skill required to do good work is the same. So the initial learning curve is the only real difference beyond ease of clean up after welding.
So buying a mig because it's easier to use seems to me like buying a car with an automatic transmission because you think learning to shift is too intimidating. Whether you're shifting or it's happening automatically the big thing is learning to control a vehicle.
MMM
Platinum Member
I agree Harv. When I went to schoo we didn't touch an arc welder 'till we passed oxy. I think that's where you really come to understand the proccess and a big problem with people just going out and buying a machine. Painfully slow, but enlightening.
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( When I went to schoo we didn't touch an arc welder 'till we passed oxy. I think that's where you really come to understand the proccess)</font>
I know that's right.
I learned how to arc weld with an old Forney, 3/32 E6011, and sixteen gauge galvanized pipe. My dad was the gate man at a large fence company. He got fed up with me coming in with a project all cut out and ready to weld up at quitting time. One day I guess he'd had one of those days. So when I showed up all grins and ideas he said, "boy, it's time you learned how to weld." World hasn't been the same since.
But I didn't really learn what welding was until I took an oxy acetylene class at college. I agree with you that learning how to manipulate the molten metal with only heat and a filler rod is the best way to learn to weld. Because understanding what is really happening makes any other welding process easier to learn.
If someone's wanting to learn about welding and taking a welding class isn't available there's another option. If you have an old fashioned muffler shop in the area give them a visit. Watch an installer take a puddle of molten metal and by cajoling, pulling, pushing, and wishing make two pieces of thin steel pipe into one.
You'll see the sides fall into the puddle and then the puddle will slide up to the gap made by their collapse to attack the sides just above the collapse. That's welding.
Seeing that, the collapse, or melting, is what you're looking for when making two pieces of steel into one. You will learn to embrace instead of avoiding that when welding.
I weld up a lot of pipe fence. About half of it is thin wall, schedule ten, schedule twenty. Even though I charge more than anyone else, it ain't cheap getting an old man to work, it still isn't economical to get the perfect fit up weldors like. So it isn't unusual to have a gap of a half an inch and the material being welded up is only a sixteenth of an inch. That stuff happens. Like when the posts are machine coped or notched and the grade is steep. The top pipe will touch on the low side and there'll be a gap you could hide your mother in law's two front teeth in on the high side.
If the truck is a couple of hundred feet away you can't run back and change the amperage setting. So what you do is the same thing that muffler guy does. You get a big puddle just hanging there in space and you talk to it. You pull it. You push it. Sometimes you do all three things at the same time. And if you're holding your mouth just right it'll be like taking some play dough and plugging a hole. And if it doesn't. You do it again. Eventually you're going to learn when to push, when to pull and when to just hold your breath and beg.
Yes. Sometimes I'll knock the flux off of a piece of rod and use it for filler. That works too. But then I usually have to go back and do some quick cover passes over that. Using filler rod correctly usually involves turning up the heat so the rod acts more like a torch, heli-arcing if you will.
One of the ironies of welding is how it works. Everyone wants a pretty bead. And if one concentrates solely on making a good weld invariably it will be a pretty one.
The one exception to that is mig welds. I pick up a hundred or so a month from one customer just rewelding some of the prettiest welds you've ever seen. They have a crew that makes their equipment trailers. The mig them. A couple of times a month the field crews will bring in a jack stand that's broken off or a brace that came apart. The weld will still be on one side, prettier'n a spider on your third grade teacher's blouse. It costs them fifty dollars for me to clamp it back together and lay a couple of passes.
All because the weldor was watching the bead and not watching the puddle do what puddles are supposed to do. He wasn't looking to see if the puddle was melting the metal on both sides. So like a bad kid doing homework, the puddle only melted one side, did a halfway job.
I know that's right.
I learned how to arc weld with an old Forney, 3/32 E6011, and sixteen gauge galvanized pipe. My dad was the gate man at a large fence company. He got fed up with me coming in with a project all cut out and ready to weld up at quitting time. One day I guess he'd had one of those days. So when I showed up all grins and ideas he said, "boy, it's time you learned how to weld." World hasn't been the same since.
But I didn't really learn what welding was until I took an oxy acetylene class at college. I agree with you that learning how to manipulate the molten metal with only heat and a filler rod is the best way to learn to weld. Because understanding what is really happening makes any other welding process easier to learn.
If someone's wanting to learn about welding and taking a welding class isn't available there's another option. If you have an old fashioned muffler shop in the area give them a visit. Watch an installer take a puddle of molten metal and by cajoling, pulling, pushing, and wishing make two pieces of thin steel pipe into one.
You'll see the sides fall into the puddle and then the puddle will slide up to the gap made by their collapse to attack the sides just above the collapse. That's welding.
Seeing that, the collapse, or melting, is what you're looking for when making two pieces of steel into one. You will learn to embrace instead of avoiding that when welding.
I weld up a lot of pipe fence. About half of it is thin wall, schedule ten, schedule twenty. Even though I charge more than anyone else, it ain't cheap getting an old man to work, it still isn't economical to get the perfect fit up weldors like. So it isn't unusual to have a gap of a half an inch and the material being welded up is only a sixteenth of an inch. That stuff happens. Like when the posts are machine coped or notched and the grade is steep. The top pipe will touch on the low side and there'll be a gap you could hide your mother in law's two front teeth in on the high side.
If the truck is a couple of hundred feet away you can't run back and change the amperage setting. So what you do is the same thing that muffler guy does. You get a big puddle just hanging there in space and you talk to it. You pull it. You push it. Sometimes you do all three things at the same time. And if you're holding your mouth just right it'll be like taking some play dough and plugging a hole. And if it doesn't. You do it again. Eventually you're going to learn when to push, when to pull and when to just hold your breath and beg.
Yes. Sometimes I'll knock the flux off of a piece of rod and use it for filler. That works too. But then I usually have to go back and do some quick cover passes over that. Using filler rod correctly usually involves turning up the heat so the rod acts more like a torch, heli-arcing if you will.
One of the ironies of welding is how it works. Everyone wants a pretty bead. And if one concentrates solely on making a good weld invariably it will be a pretty one.
The one exception to that is mig welds. I pick up a hundred or so a month from one customer just rewelding some of the prettiest welds you've ever seen. They have a crew that makes their equipment trailers. The mig them. A couple of times a month the field crews will bring in a jack stand that's broken off or a brace that came apart. The weld will still be on one side, prettier'n a spider on your third grade teacher's blouse. It costs them fifty dollars for me to clamp it back together and lay a couple of passes.
All because the weldor was watching the bead and not watching the puddle do what puddles are supposed to do. He wasn't looking to see if the puddle was melting the metal on both sides. So like a bad kid doing homework, the puddle only melted one side, did a halfway job.
Cliff_Johns
Elite Member
You know, Harv, I think I could listen to you talk about welding all day and never find a dull or uninteresting moment. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Cliff
Cliff
40Kchicks
Gold Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 489
- Location
- Western Oregon
- Tractor
- 2003 Kubota M9000DTL 2001 JD 2252 Orchard Tractor Cat 216 Skidsteer 1999 JD 450H Dozer 1994 JD 644G wheel loader
It seems to me that often times when people ask about mig machines they are often referred to as being big bucks. I would like to defend them and say that my mig has been worth every penny and easily earned it’s keep around my farm. Before I got my mig I bought a Lincoln AC/DC tombstone stick welder. It is a very capable machine but I felt it was a little slow to do the big projects I wanted to do. What I ended up doing was tacking the projects together at home and then taking them to a welding shop that my brother works for and we would use the mig to make quick work of the rest of the welding. The ease and speed of the mig machine is huge. My last project was a machine that is pulled behind my tractor and cleans my poultry barns. I could have bought one if I had the $16,000 but instead I built one for $6000. I also built a couple buckets and a hydraulic auger for my skid steer and a ground leveler for my tractor. Right now I’m fixing up a case backhoe attachment that I found for $250 for my skid steer. The right equipment makes lots of things possible.
I think that a AC/DC tombstone welder would be great to have around for little repairs or occasional use but If your wanting to build grapples and buckets and other big ticket items the $1-2K for a good mig is easily justified considering the speed and ease that the mig gives you. Heck a computer cost about $1000 and is obsolete in a few years but a good welder will last a lifetime.
Just and observation
Eric
I think that a AC/DC tombstone welder would be great to have around for little repairs or occasional use but If your wanting to build grapples and buckets and other big ticket items the $1-2K for a good mig is easily justified considering the speed and ease that the mig gives you. Heck a computer cost about $1000 and is obsolete in a few years but a good welder will last a lifetime.
Just and observation
Eric
tomrscott
Gold Member
40Kchicks,
You make a really good point. I've been guilty of the attitude you describe, but I think it has more to do with a "quantum theory of family budgeting." /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
There is a "local budget authority" spend level that I can get away with just because I think it is a good idea. But then there is a level of capital expenditure that requires "higher authority," and sometimes offsetting additional expenditures (leather couches, vacations, jewelry, etc.). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It isn't that I think the cost of a good mig isn't entirely justified for the appropriate work, but just that it is harder to sneak into the budget; the same problem I'm having with a plasma cutter. I'd like nothing better than to plunk down $2.5k or $3k for both, and you're right, it would be a lifetime expenditure that "I" would never regret.
On the other hand, I gather that it has been common for folks, perhaps trying to stay within that "local budget authority," to buy too small a mig for the jobs they needed to do, and then can't get enough penetration, in which case they would have been better off spending the budget they had on a stick welder.
Better a strong ugly weld than one that (as someone else so aptly described it) "Makes beautiful welds with all the strength of window caulk!"
I guess the point I have learned from others is, "If you can't afford to get enough mig for the job, get a stick that is more than enough." Otherwise, save up enough extra for the couch or jewelry that goes with it.
(ducking for cover behind the leather couch that helped get my JD790, before the sexism police raid the thread) /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
You make a really good point. I've been guilty of the attitude you describe, but I think it has more to do with a "quantum theory of family budgeting." /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
There is a "local budget authority" spend level that I can get away with just because I think it is a good idea. But then there is a level of capital expenditure that requires "higher authority," and sometimes offsetting additional expenditures (leather couches, vacations, jewelry, etc.). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It isn't that I think the cost of a good mig isn't entirely justified for the appropriate work, but just that it is harder to sneak into the budget; the same problem I'm having with a plasma cutter. I'd like nothing better than to plunk down $2.5k or $3k for both, and you're right, it would be a lifetime expenditure that "I" would never regret.
On the other hand, I gather that it has been common for folks, perhaps trying to stay within that "local budget authority," to buy too small a mig for the jobs they needed to do, and then can't get enough penetration, in which case they would have been better off spending the budget they had on a stick welder.
Better a strong ugly weld than one that (as someone else so aptly described it) "Makes beautiful welds with all the strength of window caulk!"
I guess the point I have learned from others is, "If you can't afford to get enough mig for the job, get a stick that is more than enough." Otherwise, save up enough extra for the couch or jewelry that goes with it.
(ducking for cover behind the leather couch that helped get my JD790, before the sexism police raid the thread) /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
tomrscott
Gold Member
Is it safe to come out yet? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
