Global Warming News

[FallbrookFarmer]

I like markets. I also like a government that can ride herd on people's baser instincts. Complain about the growth of government if you must, but realize that much of the growth of government is the result of people doing stupid things, and the majority of them were involved in a business. This doesn't mean business is evil, it just means a business has enough money and works on a large enough scale to cause real problems. An individual could do the same given the resources.

The Exxon Valdez oil spill is a perfect example. Lacking a government with a big enough stick, how many of those spills would occur and how diligently would they be cleaned up? If history is a guide, the answer would be dismal.

I think you operate on the assumption that a multitude of market activities will result in the greatest good, like a hill of ants or hive of bees. First, we need to define 'good' and second, history demonstrates that without any regulations, most of the 'good' tends to end up the hands of a very few, very wealthy people. Unfortunately for some people, they can never have enough and often their gains are ill-gotten. Robber Barons earned the name, you know?

Example: While the descendants of Sam Walton were becoming some of the wealthiest people in the world, their employees (excuse me, associates) were being arm twisted into working for free. Aside from mobs burning the stores, who will correct that other than a government? Which action would you prefer?
Dave.

So many Liberal Shibboleths, so little time!
When you speak of baser instincts, are you referring to mobs of people harassing AIG executives at there homes,or perhaps the President of the US suggesting that if AIG didn't go long with the program, he might not stand in the way of those mobs? Those kinds of baser instincts?
I would agree with you that the growth of government has been facilitated by "stupid" people who actually believe that the government is actually going to give them something for "free".
What "real problems" does business cause? Giving people employment, producing goods and services that people actually want,paying taxes at a greater rate than the general populace? Those kinds of problems?
Let me use Bill Gates(the richest person on earth) as an example of one of those robber barons that you deplore.
How many jobs has he created? How many millionaires has he created? How much good(medically,educationally,businesswise, etc,etc) has he created? That kind of Robber Baron? Were he's gains ill gotten? Or did he produce a product that was wildly successful, and by so doing made the economy bigger, thereby making the pie bigger for everyone, rather than squabbling over who gets a bigger slice.
Exxon Valdez spill. Some fish died, some birds died.
If you were to go there today, would you see any evidence of the spill? If you want some real evidence of ecological disasters, go to the former Soviet Union or Eastern Block countries, why doesn't the press make an issue of those truly horrendous events?
So if the Walton's became rich by delivering products to markets more efficiently, than there competitors who had to use union labor, you feel that "mobs burning their stores" are a correct response, or that government(readoliticians who are beholden to unions for their campaign contributions) should somehow "control them.
Check out what just happened in Chicago(One of the strongest unions cities in the country) when Wall-mart wanted to open a store. There were about 100 applicants for every job. And Dick Daley used his first veto in twenty years in office to override a vote to keep them out.

 

[Loren49]

FallbrockFarmer:

RE:Google "French Nuclear Waste Disposal" Don't know why the link didn't work. Probably because I'm an analog guy in a digital age!

I didn't say I got no hits - just stated it looks like it is mostly in temporary storage and they are studying and working on long term storage. Lots like what we are doing.

France’s Radioactive Waste Management Program - Fact Sheet

In 1991 they authorized a 15 year study and are now drilling in a clay area and looking for a granite site for high level materials (and long half-life). Does this sound like a clear and solid 10000 year program is set.

How much of these future costs or dangers are factored into their costs or is it to be passed on to their children?

Loren

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

FallbrockFramer,
I don't agree that government is by any means the only way to take care of a desired service. I think it pays to be specific with a given issue. I believe in a publicly funded army and all state, town, county police forces. Our use of "Black Water" has not saved money from what I have found and we have lost too much control of what they do. K-12 school should be public and there should be affordable post secondary education so that we can train the best and brightest even if they are poor. Fire and emergency protection is often publicly funded and sometimes covered by volunteer fire departments. Also as we do with SCHIP, Medicare, Medicade and many other programs, much of our population on some medical needs. What I would like to see is much different than what we have but it would include a basic level of coverage for including preventative medicine. There would be a copay depending on income for most visits with incentives to use the appropriate treatment (clinic visit instead of going to the ER. As is the case now with Medicare there are limits and private insurance gives a higher level of coverage. I am clearly in favor of one government agency (instead of the many that exist now) to oversee healthcare. I know that many disagree but I am not saying that we give everything to everybody for free - that's nuts.
Many regulatory agencies should be insulated as much as possible from business and corporate interest. I feel the best group to do this is by Federal, State or local governments.
You don't know my view when you state -quote "Here's one: How about We "give" people everything that they "need", and then the people return everything that they "can". Loren, Dave, sound okay?"
I think it makes much more sense to discuss specific topics or proposed solutions than to throw labels around and tell others what they think. I just feel that calling someone heartless or a facist would seem to not serve no constructive purpose. That statement is not directed at anyone -just an example.

A little more math on the 80 watt solar panel - if it averaged 65 watts of output for 10 hours a day for 365 days a year the power output would be
65 watts x 10 hrs x 365 = 650 watt hours x 365 = 23720 watt hours or
about 237.25 kwh for the year. At 15 cents per kwh it would produce $35.59 worth of electricity. Watts per year makes no sense; power is measured in kwh, mega watt hours or tera watt hours.

Note that the World Nuclear Association may be a bit biased and not take into account the full cost or health danger for the next 10000 years for its nuclear wastes.

I do enjoy the discussion when it stays civil and have learned much from many of you,
Loren

1000% agreement on keeping the discussion civil!
I have often thought that ***** bin Laden succeeded in the 9/11 attacks on one level that in someways he did divide the country. At the end of the day, hopefully we can all agree that we are all Americans, and while we may squabble and fight amongst ourselves, when the time comes, we can unite, and show the world,that we are in fact, the greatest country on Earth.
That having been said, let's argue some more
Personally, I feel that the base of our current fiscal crisis was the easy access to credit that characterized the 1990s-mid 2000s.
I like explain by making the person I am talking to a banker. So Congratulations Loren, you now own your own bank.
So I come in and say I would like to borrow $500000 to buy a medium priced house here in California.
And you, being a prudent person, want to do a virtual proctological exam, to make sure that you get your money back. ( I am sure many of you have had a similar feeling,applying for a loan!)
Now lets say that yours is a federally chartered bank(as most are) and the govt says that there are certain groups that they feel are "underserved" by your bank.
(Janet Reno"If you don't make these loans, we will be looking at your charters very carefully")and the govt says that they will guarantee that you won't lose any money, because they have federal agencies that will buy the loans.
Now you can make the loans(making Uncle Sam happy)make your loan originator fees, and then push the paper out the door. Everybody's happy, right? Only until the market collapses, as it had to, and the taxpayers are stuck with the bill. But certain politicians keep getting elected, because some people believe that there is something called a "Free lunch"Thanks Farney Brank, keep wanting to "roll the dice"with the taxpayers money.

 

[dave1949]

So many Liberal Shibboleths, so little time!
When you speak of baser instincts, are you referring to mobs of people harassing AIG executives at there homes,or perhaps the President of the US suggesting that if AIG didn't go long with the program, he might not stand in the way of those mobs? Those kinds of baser instincts?
I would agree with you that the growth of government has been facilitated by "stupid" people who actually believe that the government is actually going to give them something for "free".
What "real problems" does business cause? Giving people employment, producing goods and services that people actually want,paying taxes at a greater rate than the general populace? Those kinds of problems?
Let me use Bill Gates(the richest person on earth) as an example of one of those robber barons that you deplore.
How many jobs has he created? How many millionaires has he created? How much good(medically,educationally,businesswise, etc,etc) has he created? That kind of Robber Baron? Were he's gains ill gotten? Or did he produce a product that was wildly successful, and by so doing made the economy bigger, thereby making the pie bigger for everyone, rather than squabbling over who gets a bigger slice.
Exxon Valdez spill. Some fish died, some birds died.
If you were to go there today, would you see any evidence of the spill? If you want some real evidence of ecological disasters, go to the former Soviet Union or Eastern Block countries, why doesn't the press make an issue of those truly horrendous events?
So if the Walton's became rich by delivering products to markets more efficiently, than there competitors who had to use union labor, you feel that "mobs burning their stores" are a correct response, or that government(readoliticians who are beholden to unions for their campaign contributions) should somehow "control them.
Check out what just happened in Chicago(One of the strongest unions cities in the country) when Wall-mart wanted to open a store. There were about 100 applicants for every job. And Dick Daley used his first veto in twenty years in office to override a vote to keep them out.

Bill Gates! Ha Ha. How is it that the biggest piece of crap ever programmed became the dominant desktop operating system and software suite? Must have been the technical excellence :laughing: Until Bill got married and his wife started fronting for him, the man could hardly be called human. You really don't understand the history of Microsoft at all.

Walmart, unions, blah blah blah. I guess by your moral compass cheating people out of their wages is okay? You are putting lipstick on a pig here. For you it isn't about people, it's about unions vs Walmart. Very sad.

Exxon Valdez - Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council -
Again, you are not well informed. Nor did you answer the question - without some government, who rides herd on Exxon-Mobil?

Funny you should mention AIG in your parade of crooks. Wah, Wah, Wah, the government stole my morals and made a thief out of me -
Dave.

 

[keegs]

Funny you should mention AIG in your parade of crooks. Wah, Wah, Wah, the government stole my morals and made a thief out of me -
Dave.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Bill Gates! Ha Ha. How is it that the biggest piece of crap ever programmed became the dominant desktop operating system and software suite? Must have been the technical excellence :laughing: Until Bill got married and his wife started fronting for him, the man could hardly be called human. You really don't understand the history of Microsoft at all.

Walmart, unions, blah blah blah. I guess by your moral compass cheating people out of their wages is okay? You are putting lipstick on a pig here. For you it isn't about people, it's about unions vs Walmart. Very sad.

Exxon Valdez - Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council -
Again, you are not well informed. Nor did you answer the question - without some government, who rides herd on Exxon-Mobil?

Funny you should mention AIG in your parade of crooks. Wah, Wah, Wah, the government stole my morals and made a thief out of me -
Dave.

As you asked the question, How DID it become the most used operating system in the world?
And btw you obviously misunderstood my response, The Robber Barons actually built something, unlike, well say, community organizers.
As to Bill Gates, never have met the man, and wouldn't know his personal habits, you?

Have you ever actually talked to an employee of Wal-Mart, I have, and they indicated that they were happy with their situation. Perhaps you're getting your info from the Daily Kos or Huffington Post?
As to being "not well informed" I guess your right,I only read 3 daily newspapers, and spend at least an hour perusing the net everyday for news. And I guess that reading two three books a week wouldn't count,because they wouldn't be on the "approved" list. Oh well. My Bad.
BTW Might I refer you to an incident in American History called the Bonus Marchers, as to how well the government treats some of its citizens.
AIG to best of my ill informed information shows me a company that offered a legal service to people that wanted to purchase it. Show how does that qualify for suspension of basic police protection? Does the fact the AIG insured congressional pensions , or that the fact that AIG stock quadrupled in value while "our dear leader" was castigating them, cause any cognitive dissonance, or perhaps, you will continue to believe in the Potemkin villages that are being constructed in front of your face, wait, don't look behind the curtain!!!
btw when your through googling the big words, please repost!

 

[Chuck52]

Was it in some "how to argue with your liberal friends" that you and my own best friend learned that bit about how it is up to your opponent to teach you? What part of the Constitution is open to interpretation? The whole thing! If you only see black and white, it is easy to see the document as "simple" and "straightforward". It only requires that everyone else agree with your interpretation, and it is your interpretation. Just as most modern Americans have only a vague idea of the religious beliefs of the "Founding Fathers", we also cannot possibly see into their minds concerning their construct, the Constitution. If You really believe that none of those gentlemen would, if alive today, align themselves with the more liberal parts of our present political thought, you truely are egocentric.

I personally suspect some of them would be very, very conservative today. Some would probably make your hair fall out with their "progressive" ideas. Remember, they were reacting against a civilization where inherited privilege meant everything. Certainly, some thought of themselves as self-made men, but others surely recognized that chance has a strong affect on success.

For all his flaws, Jefferson must surely have recognized that some of his slaves were at least the intellectual equals of some of his white friends...he was after all, not an idiot.

So, you think you know what he meant? Amusing.

Chuck

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I agree and wish to withdraw my flippant remark at the end`of my post. My apologies

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Was it in some "how to argue with your liberal friends" that you and my own best friend learned that bit about how it is up to your opponent to teach you? What part of the Constitution is open to interpretation? The whole thing! If you only see black and white, it is easy to see the document as "simple" and "straightforward". It only requires that everyone else agree with your interpretation, and it is your interpretation. Just as most modern Americans have only a vague idea of the religious beliefs of the "Founding Fathers", we also cannot possibly see into their minds concerning their construct, the Constitution. If You really believe that none of those gentlemen would, if alive today, align themselves with the more liberal parts of our present political thought, you truely are egocentric.

I personally suspect some of them would be very, very conservative today. Some would probably make your hair fall out with their "progressive" ideas. Remember, they were reacting against a civilization where inherited privilege meant everything. Certainly, some thought of themselves as self-made men, but others surely recognized that chance has a strong affect on success.

For all his flaws, Jefferson must surely have recognized that some of his slaves were at least the intellectual equals of some of his white friends...he was after all, not an idiot.

So, you think you know what he meant? Amusing.

Chuck

Forgive me if I don't understand the gist of your opening, but as to the "interpretation" of the Constitution, I must
demurely disagree.
I would posit that the position of a "Liberal" has been remolded into one that would not be recognized by Madison,Jefferson, Franklin et al.
A truely "liberal" position would be the like of Voltaire and
I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it. Would you say that is a modern day "liberal" position? I would say not.
Again, what would a "conservative" today, if not a liberal of the Framers time,position be on say national defense.
If you truly believe that all of the Constitution, is somehow so vague, as to be subject to constant interpretation, I would truly be saddened, and concerned that we as Americans, at the end of the day cannot, believe in the national motto E Pluribus Unum.

 

[dave1949]

As you asked the question, How DID it become the most used operating system in the world?
And btw you obviously misunderstood my response, The Robber Barons actually built something, unlike, well say, community organizers.
As to Bill Gates, never have met the man, and wouldn't know his personal habits, you?

Bill Gates made much his money the old fashioned way, lying, cheating and stealing.
United States v. Microsoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Microsoft has been in and out of court in the US and Europe for years. Most of the charges revolve around anti-trust and monopoly laws. Microsoft repeated some of the IBM bundling tactics used to dominate the commercial mainframe market in the late 1970's and early 1980's - which put them in court too.

Okay, so alls fair in war and business. The real issue to me is the number of better quality products developed by software entrepreneurs that Microsoft, due to it's market position, was able to scuttle, or incorporate a similar but of poorer quality product into Windows OS, and give away for free - just to keep any competition away. Sure Bill made many millionaires, he also made money on every one of them by keeping it all in house.

If you take a clear eyed view at the reliability and stability of Microsoft products, they are on a par well below industry software performance standards. Add in the security flaws and you have even more to object to. How much has Microsoft's sloppy security cost the business world - to date? Even if you lose nothing, the expense of tracking and applying endless updates is atrocious. If Bill had to give a dime to every user for every nonsense reboot, he would be broke. It was not technical excellence that got Bill where he is.

Bill and Melinda Gates are doing great charity work. I think you will find that the foundation and active philanthropy began after they married in 1993.

Yes, Bill and Waltons are out there redistributing the wealth they chiseled out of hard working Americans.
Dave.