Global Warming?

[SPYDERLK]

Typical, attack the messenger, it's an Alinsky tactic. Rob you are the poster boy of why it doesn't work. You have admitted that all your solar and wind was from grants and give aways by others. All your power comes from subsidies or in other words you took it from some else who payed for it! That on your own with your own money could not afford to light a bulb with solar power. I am not one who has to prove anything to anyone, it's you! Where is solar working? The answer is no where. The last study I was reading stated that not one wind turbine in the WORLD made money or was going to make money. Wind turbines kill birds like all the oil spills ever combined have killed. Solar doesn't power really anything anywhere and is not competitive in the market unless you take money from someone (taxes) and give to a solar company. Wind is worse yet. It is oil and gas unless someone invents something else, for now that something else has not been found, it's not solar or wind, they are out. Batteries don't the solve the problem either. Anyone who thinks solar or wind could power America really doesn't have a clue to how much portable power we use and need. Get real, face some facts. Anyone who thinks solar can power America is dumber than a box of rocks. No one wants to live like you Rob and no one in the USA should have too. The idea that you know all and everyone should embrace your way of life and lie is offense.

HS

Is the dumbness of a box of rocks directly or inversely proportional to the size of the box ... and why? Just as in boxes of rocks there is a degree to things. Buzzwords like "power America" just take an extreme to make contributory sources seem as ridiculous as possible and thwart any tendency to cooperate toward alternate solutions. There will be no progress without trying. Obviously petroleum is great for portability. The grid however is hard wired and is much more able to harvest and re disperse power from land based sources. The push toward this should be constant so that new utilities will incorporate design that can operate in synergy with alternative sources.
larry

 

[_RaT_]

I subscribed to "Home Power" magazine for several years. I recommend it. Lots of stories of wind, solar, hydro, etc. System diagrams, suppliers and parts lists. Advertisers are typically alternative power product manufacturers or vendors.

Never once in the years I subscribed was a solar electric project driven by economics. Possible exception: people wanted electricity at a home site so remote that getting the wires to them from grid was so terribly expensive that it made a very high cost solar system a much better deal (at least over the life expectancy of the owner.

Most were projects that made the buyer "feel green" but was a terrible economic decision. If it makes your heart flutter to see the meter spin backwards and can PAY for that thrill, go for it. Folks blessed with the water volume and head can easily make micro hydro work. Wind can be a good deal IF your average wind is sufficient (most places that claim to be windy aren't windy enough.)

Net metering is a GOOD thing. Selling yours at wholesale and buying theirs at retail is not a good deal.

Oh, many of the projects in the "Home Power " magazine were done illegally by installers appearing in the magazine photos wearing ski masks.

CFL's are smart money as well as resource conservative. My first Government engineering job was Energy Conservation Officer of SUBASE San Diego. I relamped lots of applications with CFL's. Buying CFL's was not an expense, per se, but was an investment with a nice return. In those days, mid 80's, CFL's were much more expensive like $20 for a 60W equivalent. Yet, if you totaled up the total cost of ownership per unit time and compared to similar cost using traditional filament bulbs you see that the CFL pays for itself through energy savings plus saves you an additional $20 or so during its lifetime. ...and you save on labor too as you change bulbs less often.

One day maybe LED's will be more cost effective. There are filament bulbs in development that are significantly more cost effective than CFL's if they can be made more easily manufactured.

Pat

Pat, the economic issue is very dependent on the price of your power (as well as rebate incentives)and how quickly one goes into the next tier. If I run my alarm clock with no buzzer, I can stay in tier 1, run the buzzer and it puts me in tier 2 . Few folks can stay out of tier 3 without solar assistance. I think tier 3 is now pushing 38 cents per kwh. This does not include transmission and distribution charges. WE burn about 1000 kwh a month. We have a Hot Springs spa, a swimming pool and 2 refrigerators. NG for heat and water heater as well as the stove. If we killed one frig and dropped the spa, I suspect we could do quite a bit better. You are indeed correct about folks who live off the beaten path with no power close by. The cost to get the wire there is prohibitive for most. Small hydro and/or solar with battery storage is the preferred method.

 

[rsewill]

I remember electric trolley cars. There are still electric-only locomotives. Power could be run in road beds to run vehicles. We could run the whole country on wind alone. As long as the earth turns and the sun shines the wind will blow. Wind can be used to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, then pumping the hydrogen into the ground for storage to be used later to generate electricity when needed. Remember President Bush and his Hydrogen Economy?

 

[Rob-D]

Can you supply a link to where we can see evidence of the use of CFL's prior to 1975?

Note for the casual onlooker: CFL = Compact Fluorescent Lamp and is NOT at all the same as the original fluorescent lamps in use for years.

Now as regards getting on a plane... Do I get to be the pilot or get to choose the pilot. They are not all identical just as not all scientists are alike. Recall the drunk pilot scandals? There are good, bad, and indifferent members of both groups; scientists and pilots. Minus a few flaws in presentation, the basic attempt was amusing and I'm sure most of us "got it."

Would you drink the koolaid if it were offered to you by a minister? How about a vegetarian minister?

Pat

CFL's AND FL's both work by the excitation of mercury vapor. FL's went into wide use in 1938.

I wouldn't drink Koolaid regardless who offered it, it's is filled with genetically modified high fructose corn syrup and is responsible for a good percentage of the obesity in the US and the high number of adolescents with type 2 diabetes.

Rob

 

[Loren49]

Illegal aliens found to cause global warming, study says

Colbert: Global warming caused by immigrants | The Raw Story :thumbsup:

Loren

 

[Rob-D]

Typical, attack the messenger, it's an Alinsky tactic. Rob you are the poster boy of why it doesn't work. You have admitted that all your solar and wind was from grants and give aways by others. All your power comes from subsidies or in other words you took it from some else who payed for it! That on your own with your own money could not afford to light a bulb with solar power. I am not one who has to prove anything to anyone, it's you! Where is solar working? The answer is no where. The last study I was reading stated that not one wind turbine in the WORLD made money or was going to make money. Wind turbines kill birds like all the oil spills ever combined have killed. Solar doesn't power really anything anywhere and is not competitive in the market unless you take money from someone (taxes) and give to a solar company. Wind is worse yet. It is oil and gas unless someone invents something else, for now that something else has not been found, it's not solar or wind, they are out. Batteries don't the solve the problem either. Anyone who thinks solar or wind could power America really doesn't have a clue to how much portable power we use and need. Get real, face some facts. Anyone who thinks solar can power America is dumber than a box of rocks. No one wants to live like you Rob and no one in the USA should have too. The idea that you know all and everyone should embrace your way of life and lie is offense.

HS

Wrong again!

I paid for my off grid system, did the government give me 30% back, yep but I paid for the bulk of the system.
My microhydro will be completely built by me - from scratch- and so will my wind.

A lot of people want to live like me, they tell me everyday, and by the way, we live very well! And tell me who wouldn't want to live with free heat and electricity? Would that be you?
Attack the messenger? When the messenger makes silly statements like the US is the healthiest country in the world or fails to recognize the effects of smog and acid rain and keeps making the same misinformed statements regardless what he is shown, then I think we have a right to address his statements. I have a right to question what you know just as he has a right to question what I know.

And I'll say it again, you have given no evidence that you know an MPPT from an inverter, you have never installed a system or lived by one yet you know they won't work, which is also totally wrong, they absolutely work.

So prove me wrong and tell me how long you have lived with alternate energy and your personal experiences with it? I think you don't know anything about electronics, the working of an intertie system, exactly how much maintenance batteries require or the percentage of recyclable parts batteries have.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

Pat, the economic issue is very dependent on the price of your power (as well as rebate incentives)and how quickly one goes into the next tier. If I run my alarm clock with no buzzer, I can stay in tier 1, run the buzzer and it puts me in tier 2 . Few folks can stay out of tier 3 without solar assistance. I think tier 3 is now pushing 38 cents per kwh. This does not include transmission and distribution charges. WE burn about 1000 kwh a month. We have a Hot Springs spa, a swimming pool and 2 refrigerators. NG for heat and water heater as well as the stove. If we killed one frig and dropped the spa, I suspect we could do quite a bit better. You are indeed correct about folks who live off the beaten path with no power close by. The cost to get the wire there is prohibitive for most. Small hydro and/or solar with battery storage is the preferred method.

RaT,

The best AE is hydro, it runs basically 24/7. Solar is next and then wind because wind takes maintenance. BUT wind compliments solar and is very feasible.

A lot of people don't like VAWT (vertical access wind turbines) but I think they have some good points, yes they get less power and will most likely never approach Betz, but they have very low maintenance and only a couple of moving parts.

Rob

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

I remember electric trolley cars. There are still electric-only locomotives. Power could be run in road beds to run vehicles. We could run the whole country on wind alone. As long as the earth turns and the sun shines the wind will blow. Wind can be used to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, then pumping the hydrogen into the ground for storage to be used later to generate electricity when needed. Remember President Bush and his Hydrogen Economy?

You're right.

Alternate energy isn't the problem, it's the bad press spread by groups who don't want to see AE succeed, that's the biggest hurdle not the technology.
I can buy solar panels now for $1.20 a watt. That's pretty cheap energy to have for the next 30 years.

So why aren't people running to the stores to buy it? Nonsense from guys like Rush who lead the lemmings into the sea believing the hype energy giants sell.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

One day maybe LED's will be more cost effective. There are filament bulbs in development that are significantly more cost effective than CFL's if they can be made more easily manufactured.

Pat

You can buy CFL's at HD six for ten bucks if I remember. Incandescents will never equal the efficiency of CFL's, LED's are approaching CFL's in efficiency now and the prices are falling. All the major chip manufacturers are producing high efficiency LED driver chips, it''s gang busters, every electronic tech pub I get has something about LED's.

Rob

 

[_RaT_]

RaT,

The best AE is hydro, it runs basically 24/7. Solar is next and then wind because wind takes maintenance. BUT wind compliments solar and is very feasible.

A lot of people don't like VAWT (vertical access wind turbines) but I think they have some good points, yes they get less power and will most likely never approach Betz, but they have very low maintenance and only a couple of moving parts.

Rob

Rob

That is something that I am the least educated about. How many people can actually access it? I could not. I suspect the more urban you are, the less likely it is an option. Also here in California, I suspect you would need an EPA review to even consider installing anything in a stream, it really is that bad out here. Have you seen the size and amount of wind power out here? It is massive! Here is an article about a nearby utility company called SMUD. I installed backup generation for this place last summer.

- The Washington Post