Global Warming?

[_RaT_]

Glad they are getting around to heavily taxing carbon. I look forward to seeing lots more renewables.

Yeah, hopefully they will send another half billion dollars Solyndras way to re-open the plant and make even more expensive solar panels. I know that when government gets involved solving issues like poverty by spending trillions, war on drugs, etc., the problem is always eliminated. :laughing:

 

[Rob-D]

"a fundamental shift in the way we think and act."

The tab for U.N.?s Rio summit: Trillions per year in taxes, transfers and price hikes | Fox News

"a fundamental shift in the way we think and act."

Who here thinks we can keep going on at the pace we are? So yes, we have to change, regardless how much change scares the h*ll out of most people. We wnt to stick our heads in the sand and hope it all blows over.... it won't

FOX aren't they part of this brilliant thought process that thinks CFL's are a conspiracy? Meanwhile the have been, and are still being used, in every office and factory, including FOX, since 1938!

Rob

 

[mostly_gas]

Lets try this, how many will climb on an airplane where the pilot(s) know as much about flying as scientist know about global warming.
Before anybody jumps up and down, let me remind you there is only one Earth.

 

[houstonscott]

Lets stop with the pie in the sky stuff.

CO2 doesn't warm the climate! So, there is no need to cut CO2 emissions.

Solar and wind will not power much of anything, no matter who passes what laws. Doesn't really work, and is not competitive in any way shape or form.

All energy sources have to be renewed. When you store power in a battery thats no different than putting gas in a tank.

Oil and gas will power America for and the numbers keep increasing (now at 4000yrs) so not to worry anytime soon.

Global warming is good, global cooling would be a catastrophe.

HS

 

[Rob-D]

Lets try this, how many will climb on an airplane where the pilot(s) know as much about flying as scientist know about global warming.
Before anybody jumps up and down, let me remind you there is only one Earth.

A lot of scientists 'know' about CC. There are also a lot of companies, for monetary reasons, attempting to create confusion around CC.

Again:

Exxon Mobil : Influence / Lobbying

American Petroleum Institute (API) American Petroleum Institute
The oil industry's think-tank, explains that its 'most pressing issues revolve about public perceptions and government policies toward our industry -- many of which have international dimensions' [61], one of these issues being climate change. The institute lobbies against any action on climate change that could be perceived as a threat to the petroleum industry, and is extremely sceptical about the science behind climate change. 措T]he debate is about whether enough is known about climate change to warrant the lost jobs, higher consumer prices and a weakened U.S. economy that would come with implementing the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement which at best would make only slight progress toward solving climate change [62]. ExxonMobil is a financial supporter of the API and sits on the board. In 1998, Exxon helped API to plan its $ 7 million PR campaign to undermine confidence in the scientific consensus about climate change [63]. The API is a member of the Global Climate Coalition (see below).


Rob

 

[Rob-D]

Lets stop with the pie in the sky stuff.

CO2 doesn't warm the climate! So, there is no need to cut CO2 emissions.

Solar and wind will not power much of anything, no matter who passes what laws. Doesn't really work, and is not competitive in any way shape or form.

All energy sources have to be renewed. When you store power in a battery thats no different than putting gas in a tank.

Oil and gas will power America for and the numbers keep increasing (now at 4000yrs) so not to worry anytime soon.

Global warming is good, global cooling would be a catastrophe.

HS

What do you personally know about solar, wind, hydro and microhydro? Do you have first hand knowledge of any of these alternate energies or are you just parroting someone else's opinion?

I keep reminding you that I get a check every month from my power company and run net zero but, with no personal involvement, hands on knowledge, etc. you keep saying the same things like you actually know what you're talking about, which, quite frankly you don't.

If we had stayed with electrics when the first cars were developed no one would consider gas vehicles. The strides being made in renewables is daunting, and next winter I expect to be completely running and heating my house with renewables.
Batteries are only needed for off grid systems, intertie systems don't use them. Dump load heating doesn't need batteries either and microhydro running 24/7 can heat and power a house without batteries. Do you think that Niagara Falls has batteries? That's renewable energy, the only reason we use coal and gas today more than renewables is because there is an infrastructure for them.

Rob

 

[patrick_g]

"a fundamental shift in the way we think and act."

Who here thinks we can keep going on at the pace we are? So yes, we have to change, regardless how much change scares the h*ll out of most people. We wnt to stick our heads in the sand and hope it all blows over.... it won't

FOX aren't they part of this brilliant thought process that thinks CFL's are a conspiracy? Meanwhile the have been, and are still being used, in every office and factory, including FOX, since 1938!

Rob

Can you supply a link to where we can see evidence of the use of CFL's prior to 1975?

Note for the casual onlooker: CFL = Compact Fluorescent Lamp and is NOT at all the same as the original fluorescent lamps in use for years.

Now as regards getting on a plane... Do I get to be the pilot or get to choose the pilot. They are not all identical just as not all scientists are alike. Recall the drunk pilot scandals? There are good, bad, and indifferent members of both groups; scientists and pilots. Minus a few flaws in presentation, the basic attempt was amusing and I'm sure most of us "got it."

Would you drink the koolaid if it were offered to you by a minister? How about a vegetarian minister?

Pat

 

[_RaT_]

What do you personally know about solar, wind, hydro and microhydro? Do you have first hand knowledge of any of these alternate energies or are you just parroting someone else's opinion?

I keep reminding you that I get a check every month from my power company and run net zero but, with no personal involvement, hands on knowledge, etc. you keep saying the same things like you actually know what you're talking about, which, quite frankly you don't.

If we had stayed with electrics when the first cars were developed no one would consider gas vehicles. The strides being made in renewables is daunting, and next winter I expect to be completely running and heating my house with renewables.
Batteries are only needed for off grid systems, intertie systems don't use them. Dump load heating doesn't need batteries either and microhydro running 24/7 can heat and power a house without batteries. Do you think that Niagara Falls has batteries? That's renewable energy, the only reason we use coal and gas today more than renewables is because there is an infrastructure for them.

Rob

Rob, you understand why we keep getting so much skepticism about climate change. I read stories like this so much that I would be silly not to at least question the ability for humans to really know the truth of earth weather. I find I am in neither camp, I still say we have not garnered the intellectual ability to accurately and positively know without levels of speculation.

Global Warming in Last 15 Years Insignificant, U.K.'s Top Climate Scientist Admits | Fox News

As far as solar and wind power, out here in the West we have a trememdous ability to use solar, I would love to have it. We do not get "checks" form the power company if we over produce power from our solar or wind. In fact, anyone doing so over designed their system and the payback period is to long to be economical. For some reason your state is different than many, lucky you. Curious how big your system is? I would be perfect at about 3.0 to 3.5 KW. For us, it does pay to go solar since our electricity is a fortune, which is one way to make the renewable stuff work from both an economical point perspective as well as a green perspective. Without the economics, it simply will not work. You can hope and wish and threaten, but until it becomes a viable economic alternative, things will not change. We generate a significant amount of power from hydro sources out here, we have mountains, runoff and many large reservoirs. We use a significant amount of NG and a very small amount of coal. (I have never seen coal, always wanted some). Our power is so expensive from our power provider PG&E. Government regulations have made that the case for much of this cost.

One of the major obstacles with wind and solar is that both need a 100% backup option which is usually NG, geothermal, biomass or nuclear out here. The wind does not always blow (we have many thousands of windmills) and its pretty much a geographical thing as to how many hours your solar will perform, that is of course when its not cloudy. New advances in solar are already here, the new inverter panels are from what I understand the only way to go. I do not agree that advances are not being made all the time, there is no way we are "burying our heads in the sand" I am all for effective, economic enviromental improvements. Its the only way its going to work. I know it can be done. I use compact flourescents because I have found good quality ones that are affordable, work well and save me $ over conventional bulbs, I don't buy them to be "green", I buy them because for me they work well.

 

[patrick_g]

I subscribed to "Home Power" magazine for several years. I recommend it. Lots of stories of wind, solar, hydro, etc. System diagrams, suppliers and parts lists. Advertisers are typically alternative power product manufacturers or vendors.

Never once in the years I subscribed was a solar electric project driven by economics. Possible exception: people wanted electricity at a home site so remote that getting the wires to them from grid was so terribly expensive that it made a very high cost solar system a much better deal (at least over the life expectancy of the owner.

Most were projects that made the buyer "feel green" but was a terrible economic decision. If it makes your heart flutter to see the meter spin backwards and can PAY for that thrill, go for it. Folks blessed with the water volume and head can easily make micro hydro work. Wind can be a good deal IF your average wind is sufficient (most places that claim to be windy aren't windy enough.)

Net metering is a GOOD thing. Selling yours at wholesale and buying theirs at retail is not a good deal.

Oh, many of the projects in the "Home Power " magazine were done illegally by installers appearing in the magazine photos wearing ski masks.

CFL's are smart money as well as resource conservative. My first Government engineering job was Energy Conservation Officer of SUBASE San Diego. I relamped lots of applications with CFL's. Buying CFL's was not an expense, per se, but was an investment with a nice return. In those days, mid 80's, CFL's were much more expensive like $20 for a 60W equivalent. Yet, if you totaled up the total cost of ownership per unit time and compared to similar cost using traditional filament bulbs you see that the CFL pays for itself through energy savings plus saves you an additional $20 or so during its lifetime. ...and you save on labor too as you change bulbs less often.

One day maybe LED's will be more cost effective. There are filament bulbs in development that are significantly more cost effective than CFL's if they can be made more easily manufactured.

Pat

 

[houstonscott]

What do you personally know about solar, wind, hydro and microhydro? Do you have first hand knowledge of any of these alternate energies or are you just parroting someone else's opinion?

I keep reminding you that I get a check every month from my power company and run net zero but, with no personal involvement, hands on knowledge, etc. you keep saying the same things like you actually know what you're talking about, which, quite frankly you don't.

If we had stayed with electrics when the first cars were developed no one would consider gas vehicles. The strides being made in renewables is daunting, and next winter I expect to be completely running and heating my house with renewables.
Batteries are only needed for off grid systems, intertie systems don't use them. Dump load heating doesn't need batteries either and microhydro running 24/7 can heat and power a house without batteries. Do you think that Niagara Falls has batteries? That's renewable energy, the only reason we use coal and gas today more than renewables is because there is an infrastructure for them.

Rob

Typical, attack the messenger, it's an Alinsky tactic. Rob you are the poster boy of why it doesn't work. You have admitted that all your solar and wind was from grants and give aways by others. All your power comes from subsidies or in other words you took it from some else who payed for it! That on your own with your own money could not afford to light a bulb with solar power. I am not one who has to prove anything to anyone, it's you! Where is solar working? The answer is no where. The last study I was reading stated that not one wind turbine in the WORLD made money or was going to make money. Wind turbines kill birds like all the oil spills ever combined have killed. Solar doesn't power really anything anywhere and is not competitive in the market unless you take money from someone (taxes) and give to a solar company. Wind is worse yet. It is oil and gas unless someone invents something else, for now that something else has not been found, it's not solar or wind, they are out. Batteries don't the solve the problem either. Anyone who thinks solar or wind could power America really doesn't have a clue to how much portable power we use and need. Get real, face some facts. Anyone who thinks solar can power America is dumber than a box of rocks. No one wants to live like you Rob and no one in the USA should have too. The idea that you know all and everyone should embrace your way of life and lie is offense.

HS

 

[SPYDERLK]

Typical, attack the messenger, it's an Alinsky tactic. Rob you are the poster boy of why it doesn't work. You have admitted that all your solar and wind was from grants and give aways by others. All your power comes from subsidies or in other words you took it from some else who payed for it! That on your own with your own money could not afford to light a bulb with solar power. I am not one who has to prove anything to anyone, it's you! Where is solar working? The answer is no where. The last study I was reading stated that not one wind turbine in the WORLD made money or was going to make money. Wind turbines kill birds like all the oil spills ever combined have killed. Solar doesn't power really anything anywhere and is not competitive in the market unless you take money from someone (taxes) and give to a solar company. Wind is worse yet. It is oil and gas unless someone invents something else, for now that something else has not been found, it's not solar or wind, they are out. Batteries don't the solve the problem either. Anyone who thinks solar or wind could power America really doesn't have a clue to how much portable power we use and need. Get real, face some facts. Anyone who thinks solar can power America is dumber than a box of rocks. No one wants to live like you Rob and no one in the USA should have too. The idea that you know all and everyone should embrace your way of life and lie is offense.

HS

Is the dumbness of a box of rocks directly or inversely proportional to the size of the box ... and why? Just as in boxes of rocks there is a degree to things. Buzzwords like "power America" just take an extreme to make contributory sources seem as ridiculous as possible and thwart any tendency to cooperate toward alternate solutions. There will be no progress without trying. Obviously petroleum is great for portability. The grid however is hard wired and is much more able to harvest and re disperse power from land based sources. The push toward this should be constant so that new utilities will incorporate design that can operate in synergy with alternative sources.
larry

 

[_RaT_]

I subscribed to "Home Power" magazine for several years. I recommend it. Lots of stories of wind, solar, hydro, etc. System diagrams, suppliers and parts lists. Advertisers are typically alternative power product manufacturers or vendors.

Never once in the years I subscribed was a solar electric project driven by economics. Possible exception: people wanted electricity at a home site so remote that getting the wires to them from grid was so terribly expensive that it made a very high cost solar system a much better deal (at least over the life expectancy of the owner.

Most were projects that made the buyer "feel green" but was a terrible economic decision. If it makes your heart flutter to see the meter spin backwards and can PAY for that thrill, go for it. Folks blessed with the water volume and head can easily make micro hydro work. Wind can be a good deal IF your average wind is sufficient (most places that claim to be windy aren't windy enough.)

Net metering is a GOOD thing. Selling yours at wholesale and buying theirs at retail is not a good deal.

Oh, many of the projects in the "Home Power " magazine were done illegally by installers appearing in the magazine photos wearing ski masks.

CFL's are smart money as well as resource conservative. My first Government engineering job was Energy Conservation Officer of SUBASE San Diego. I relamped lots of applications with CFL's. Buying CFL's was not an expense, per se, but was an investment with a nice return. In those days, mid 80's, CFL's were much more expensive like $20 for a 60W equivalent. Yet, if you totaled up the total cost of ownership per unit time and compared to similar cost using traditional filament bulbs you see that the CFL pays for itself through energy savings plus saves you an additional $20 or so during its lifetime. ...and you save on labor too as you change bulbs less often.

One day maybe LED's will be more cost effective. There are filament bulbs in development that are significantly more cost effective than CFL's if they can be made more easily manufactured.

Pat

Pat, the economic issue is very dependent on the price of your power (as well as rebate incentives)and how quickly one goes into the next tier. If I run my alarm clock with no buzzer, I can stay in tier 1, run the buzzer and it puts me in tier 2 . Few folks can stay out of tier 3 without solar assistance. I think tier 3 is now pushing 38 cents per kwh. This does not include transmission and distribution charges. WE burn about 1000 kwh a month. We have a Hot Springs spa, a swimming pool and 2 refrigerators. NG for heat and water heater as well as the stove. If we killed one frig and dropped the spa, I suspect we could do quite a bit better. You are indeed correct about folks who live off the beaten path with no power close by. The cost to get the wire there is prohibitive for most. Small hydro and/or solar with battery storage is the preferred method.

 

[rsewill]

I remember electric trolley cars. There are still electric-only locomotives. Power could be run in road beds to run vehicles. We could run the whole country on wind alone. As long as the earth turns and the sun shines the wind will blow. Wind can be used to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, then pumping the hydrogen into the ground for storage to be used later to generate electricity when needed. Remember President Bush and his Hydrogen Economy?

 

[Rob-D]

Can you supply a link to where we can see evidence of the use of CFL's prior to 1975?

Note for the casual onlooker: CFL = Compact Fluorescent Lamp and is NOT at all the same as the original fluorescent lamps in use for years.

Now as regards getting on a plane... Do I get to be the pilot or get to choose the pilot. They are not all identical just as not all scientists are alike. Recall the drunk pilot scandals? There are good, bad, and indifferent members of both groups; scientists and pilots. Minus a few flaws in presentation, the basic attempt was amusing and I'm sure most of us "got it."

Would you drink the koolaid if it were offered to you by a minister? How about a vegetarian minister?

Pat

CFL's AND FL's both work by the excitation of mercury vapor. FL's went into wide use in 1938.

I wouldn't drink Koolaid regardless who offered it, it's is filled with genetically modified high fructose corn syrup and is responsible for a good percentage of the obesity in the US and the high number of adolescents with type 2 diabetes.

Rob

 

[Loren49]

Illegal aliens found to cause global warming, study says

Colbert: Global warming caused by immigrants | The Raw Story :thumbsup:

Loren

 

[Rob-D]

Typical, attack the messenger, it's an Alinsky tactic. Rob you are the poster boy of why it doesn't work. You have admitted that all your solar and wind was from grants and give aways by others. All your power comes from subsidies or in other words you took it from some else who payed for it! That on your own with your own money could not afford to light a bulb with solar power. I am not one who has to prove anything to anyone, it's you! Where is solar working? The answer is no where. The last study I was reading stated that not one wind turbine in the WORLD made money or was going to make money. Wind turbines kill birds like all the oil spills ever combined have killed. Solar doesn't power really anything anywhere and is not competitive in the market unless you take money from someone (taxes) and give to a solar company. Wind is worse yet. It is oil and gas unless someone invents something else, for now that something else has not been found, it's not solar or wind, they are out. Batteries don't the solve the problem either. Anyone who thinks solar or wind could power America really doesn't have a clue to how much portable power we use and need. Get real, face some facts. Anyone who thinks solar can power America is dumber than a box of rocks. No one wants to live like you Rob and no one in the USA should have too. The idea that you know all and everyone should embrace your way of life and lie is offense.

HS

Wrong again!

I paid for my off grid system, did the government give me 30% back, yep but I paid for the bulk of the system.
My microhydro will be completely built by me - from scratch- and so will my wind.

A lot of people want to live like me, they tell me everyday, and by the way, we live very well! And tell me who wouldn't want to live with free heat and electricity? Would that be you?
Attack the messenger? When the messenger makes silly statements like the US is the healthiest country in the world or fails to recognize the effects of smog and acid rain and keeps making the same misinformed statements regardless what he is shown, then I think we have a right to address his statements. I have a right to question what you know just as he has a right to question what I know.

And I'll say it again, you have given no evidence that you know an MPPT from an inverter, you have never installed a system or lived by one yet you know they won't work, which is also totally wrong, they absolutely work.

So prove me wrong and tell me how long you have lived with alternate energy and your personal experiences with it? I think you don't know anything about electronics, the working of an intertie system, exactly how much maintenance batteries require or the percentage of recyclable parts batteries have.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

Pat, the economic issue is very dependent on the price of your power (as well as rebate incentives)and how quickly one goes into the next tier. If I run my alarm clock with no buzzer, I can stay in tier 1, run the buzzer and it puts me in tier 2 . Few folks can stay out of tier 3 without solar assistance. I think tier 3 is now pushing 38 cents per kwh. This does not include transmission and distribution charges. WE burn about 1000 kwh a month. We have a Hot Springs spa, a swimming pool and 2 refrigerators. NG for heat and water heater as well as the stove. If we killed one frig and dropped the spa, I suspect we could do quite a bit better. You are indeed correct about folks who live off the beaten path with no power close by. The cost to get the wire there is prohibitive for most. Small hydro and/or solar with battery storage is the preferred method.

RaT,

The best AE is hydro, it runs basically 24/7. Solar is next and then wind because wind takes maintenance. BUT wind compliments solar and is very feasible.

A lot of people don't like VAWT (vertical access wind turbines) but I think they have some good points, yes they get less power and will most likely never approach Betz, but they have very low maintenance and only a couple of moving parts.

Rob

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

I remember electric trolley cars. There are still electric-only locomotives. Power could be run in road beds to run vehicles. We could run the whole country on wind alone. As long as the earth turns and the sun shines the wind will blow. Wind can be used to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, then pumping the hydrogen into the ground for storage to be used later to generate electricity when needed. Remember President Bush and his Hydrogen Economy?

You're right.

Alternate energy isn't the problem, it's the bad press spread by groups who don't want to see AE succeed, that's the biggest hurdle not the technology.
I can buy solar panels now for $1.20 a watt. That's pretty cheap energy to have for the next 30 years.

So why aren't people running to the stores to buy it? Nonsense from guys like Rush who lead the lemmings into the sea believing the hype energy giants sell.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

One day maybe LED's will be more cost effective. There are filament bulbs in development that are significantly more cost effective than CFL's if they can be made more easily manufactured.

Pat

You can buy CFL's at HD six for ten bucks if I remember. Incandescents will never equal the efficiency of CFL's, LED's are approaching CFL's in efficiency now and the prices are falling. All the major chip manufacturers are producing high efficiency LED driver chips, it''s gang busters, every electronic tech pub I get has something about LED's.

Rob

 

[_RaT_]

RaT,

The best AE is hydro, it runs basically 24/7. Solar is next and then wind because wind takes maintenance. BUT wind compliments solar and is very feasible.

A lot of people don't like VAWT (vertical access wind turbines) but I think they have some good points, yes they get less power and will most likely never approach Betz, but they have very low maintenance and only a couple of moving parts.

Rob

Rob

That is something that I am the least educated about. How many people can actually access it? I could not. I suspect the more urban you are, the less likely it is an option. Also here in California, I suspect you would need an EPA review to even consider installing anything in a stream, it really is that bad out here. Have you seen the size and amount of wind power out here? It is massive! Here is an article about a nearby utility company called SMUD. I installed backup generation for this place last summer.

- The Washington Post