Global Warming?

[Rob-D]

That is something that I am the least educated about. How many people can actually access it? I could not. I suspect the more urban you are, the less likely it is an option. Also here in California, I suspect you would need an EPA review to even consider installing anything in a stream, it really is that bad out here. Have you seen the size and amount of wind power out here? It is massive! Here is an article about a nearby utility company called SMUD. I installed backup generation for this place last summer.

- The Washington Post

Wow, those are big turbines!

We supply New York City water 150 miles away, The have been buying up all the land around the water shed but it will keep us from fracking as the gas companies can't frack in the water shed. They own about 75 or 100 acres across from my land. I have a small stream that feeds the water shed but I don't think they are to concerned about it. I was told that if you aren't selling it or making a monstrous generator they look the other way. I'll see, my microhydro is going in this summer. We're environmentalists so I'll be careful.

Rob

 

[patrick_g]

Pat, the economic issue is very dependent on the price of your power (as well as rebate incentives)and how quickly one goes into the next tier. If I run my alarm clock with no buzzer, I can stay in tier 1, run the buzzer and it puts me in tier 2 . Few folks can stay out of tier 3 without solar assistance. I think tier 3 is now pushing 38 cents per kwh. This does not include transmission and distribution charges. WE burn about 1000 kwh a month. We have a Hot Springs spa, a swimming pool and 2 refrigerators. NG for heat and water heater as well as the stove. If we killed one frig and dropped the spa, I suspect we could do quite a bit better. You are indeed correct about folks who live off the beaten path with no power close by. The cost to get the wire there is prohibitive for most. Small hydro and/or solar with battery storage is the preferred method.

Yup, economicks do enter into it, you betcha. As Energy Conservation Officer I was staff to the Base CO. I vied with other department heads like weps for example for $ for my projects. I did credible Net Present Value workups on virtually all my projects and pitched them on break even time and return on investment. We were the Government and did not qualify for special rebates and such. I had to deal with reality and not depend on robbing someone else through special subsidies.

If a project doesn't have the numbers, i.e. NPV, ROI, and fast enough breakeven then in the civilian world you are either getting special treatment or are kidding yourself and likely some of each.

I used to have recreational property in Baja California del Norte Mexico. It was in a solar only region. I had to sign papers declaring my understanding that I would not be on the grid and that furthermore I understood I was prohibited from joining a group action to attempt to get on the grid in the future. Generators were permitted and needed for equalization charging for proper battery maint. There were generator quiet hours so peace and quiet were maintained and solar meant solar not generator with token solar.

I may have as much or more experience with engineering, installation, and maint of solar energy, battery systems, inverters, dc water pumps and related dc household stuff as most folks here about.

I'd love to see the calcs that make solar "work" for you without ripping off your fellow taxpayers. I'd really like to see those with battery systems and inverters. Almost everyone underestimates long term battery maint expense.

Pat

 

[mostly_gas]

A lot of scientists 'know' about CC. There are also a lot of companies, for monetary reasons, attempting to create confusion around CC.

Again:

Exxon Mobil : Influence / Lobbying

American Petroleum Institute (API) American Petroleum Institute
The oil industry's think-tank, explains that its 'most pressing issues revolve about public perceptions and government policies toward our industry -- many of which have international dimensions' [61], one of these issues being climate change. The institute lobbies against any action on climate change that could be perceived as a threat to the petroleum industry, and is extremely sceptical about the science behind climate change. 措T]he debate is about whether enough is known about climate change to warrant the lost jobs, higher consumer prices and a weakened U.S. economy that would come with implementing the Kyoto Protocol, an agreement which at best would make only slight progress toward solving climate change [62]. ExxonMobil is a financial supporter of the API and sits on the board. In 1998, Exxon helped API to plan its $ 7 million PR campaign to undermine confidence in the scientific consensus about climate change [63]. The API is a member of the Global Climate Coalition (see below).


Rob

By that reasoning you should remove Prof Mann's work and East Angelica University's work and all the work done where data was not shared publicly when lawfully requested.
The question about the pilot is answered with a simple yes or no. I can't find it in your reply. So why trust them with your life on Climate change?

 

[mostly_gas]

Now as regards getting on a plane... Do I get to be the pilot or get to choose the pilot. They are not all identical just as not all scientists are alike. Recall the drunk pilot scandals? There are good, bad, and indifferent members of both groups; scientists and pilots. Minus a few flaws in presentation, the basic attempt was amusing and I'm sure most of us "got it."

Would you drink the koolaid if it were offered to you by a minister? How about a vegetarian minister?

Pat

You did not answer the question either. Amusing? From what I can tell, climate science has advanced to where a high hour student pilot would be. He knows how to get the airplane up and down on a basic level on a good day, has flown cross-country, but has yet to demo he is really ready not to have an instructor. I base it on the lack of answers by both the "experts" here and in the scientific articles I have read.
Some say regardless of no planning we MUST DO SOMETHING. So we have people lobbying both on TBN and in DC to start one of the most ill defined projects controlling the climate. Based on what we know, there is no goal, no way to know the effectiveness of the efforts, and no promise of any cost containment. Have you seen a better recipe for disaster?

 

[Rob-D]

By that reasoning you should remove Prof Mann's work and East Angelica University's work and all the work done where data was not shared publicly when lawfully requested.
The question about the pilot is answered with a simple yes or no. I can't find it in your reply. So why trust them with your life on Climate change?

So who do you want to trust Exxon? Logic dictates that they would want to muddy the CC water, the last thing they want is for someone to hold oil accountable for CC.

Your analogy is apples to oranges. What are looking for someone to say they would go up with a questionable pilot? Well maybe you would if your life depended on it. If you had to get a heart for your loved one who was dying and the plane was the only way to get the heart in time, Ill bet you'd go, I would.

I'm not off grid for CC, I think it is real but my reasoning is that the planet is in trouble from pollution, that's what's causing the health problems. Things like coal slurries in WV destroying the environment, at what point do we say resources will run out and we have to find clean ways to live for future generations. Or don't you think resources on this planet will ever run out? The last time we had a major oil find was the North Sea in 69. In 2005 OPEC decided to base a countries oil sales on the countries reserves, all of a sudden everyone's reserves doubled and tripled!

Also I wonder if you guys understand Alternate energy. First, there are some misconceptions about setting up systems. Basically solar guys go in and look at your bill and say you need an 'X' amount of panels or wind turbines. I had an installer come here and do that to me. I said, "woe, hold on, that's not how it should be done, the first thing you should do is cut people's energy usage. You can't put on solar panels and expect to live with incandescent lights left on all night." So instead of people realizing that they can't keep abusing energy they say," I can't get enough panels to run my house." Meam while they're wasting energy all over the place. We don't use 1/4 of the world's energy for nothing!

The other thing is that I'm reducing pollution and the rates of all the people in the coop, why are you angry when people get incentives. We go into wars to defend corporate oil interests in the middle east and you pay for that, are you getting a fuel benefit?

Alternate energy is people power, it takes money out of the corporate machine that feeds lobbies that control our country and lives. When I put up solar panels there's a direct benefit to the local people. When you buy electricity from PG&E that's a few people making money, they still control the energy, not you.

How do I beat the system? I run on intertie, my off grid doesn't work the batteries, they're several years old and going strong. batteries last a long time if you keep the discharge rate low, 10 or 20%. My intertie covers my energy usage and then some, so I'm actually powering another house in the summer. On sunny days I shut off the grid and the solar panels run the house with very little discharge, now I'm selling even more to the coop and everyone benefits.

Do I waste energy? Nope, EPEAT gold computers, all CFL's, etc. But people want to build big homes, drive gas guzzlers and then say,"Gee, solar won't work for me". So they drive around in a $45k SUV that gives them no return ever on theri money and say, "The pay back on solar is too long!" If we got any stupider we'd forget how to stand erect.

Some people around here accuse me of telling everyone how they should live. I'm not telling people how to live, but don't cry when you're paying a high price for heating oil next winter when I'm heating my house with AE for free.At that point I don't care how high oil prices go, can you say that?

If you can't see what's coming down the road you're blind, things aren't going to get better, there aren't any silver bullets, it's about common sense, a rare commodity in this country!

Rob

 

[crash325]

Rob D.
You take yourself far to seriously and it is clear that you know more than anyone else on this forum. At least in you tiny mind. Get off your high horse, just because facts or figures don't agree with you, does not make them wrong.

Your big deal Self Contained electric plant is going to take more than 1 person just to keep it all working. Lie to me and everyone else if you like about how great it is. Quite frankly I will bet that if you look at it in a realistic light, it is 1 big pain in the Butt.

So nice that other folks, as in Tax payers paid for 30% of it for you. Glad to help you out. Since you are saving so much money and maybe sell some of your excess power to the power co. Pay Back that 30%, you can afford it.

Like most loons, you rant & rave about conspiracy.s by Big Oil, Fox news and most anyone that does not fit into Your Little Mold on how to live life and Save The Planet.

Don't worry about all the Lead & Acid in all your batteries, none of that hurts the environment.

 

[crash325]

A little Quiz.

How many of you folks would like to pay more taxes to help out folks like Rob D. install green energy????????

Maybe even enough more to give to the Salindra's and the 16 other Green energy company's that are going belly up.

 

[_RaT_]

Yup, economicks do enter into it, you betcha. As Energy Conservation Officer I was staff to the Base CO. I vied with other department heads like weps for example for $ for my projects. I did credible Net Present Value workups on virtually all my projects and pitched them on break even time and return on investment. We were the Government and did not qualify for special rebates and such. I had to deal with reality and not depend on robbing someone else through special subsidies.

If a project doesn't have the numbers, i.e. NPV, ROI, and fast enough breakeven then in the civilian world you are either getting special treatment or are kidding yourself and likely some of each.

I used to have recreational property in Baja California del Norte Mexico. It was in a solar only region. I had to sign papers declaring my understanding that I would not be on the grid and that furthermore I understood I was prohibited from joining a group action to attempt to get on the grid in the future. Generators were permitted and needed for equalization charging for proper battery maint. There were generator quiet hours so peace and quiet were maintained and solar meant solar not generator with token solar.

I may have as much or more experience with engineering, installation, and maint of solar energy, battery systems, inverters, dc water pumps and related dc household stuff as most folks here about.

I'd love to see the calcs that make solar "work" for you without ripping off your fellow taxpayers. I'd really like to see those with battery systems and inverters. Almost everyone underestimates long term battery maint expense.

Pat

The last paragraph you mention is the part that I also have trouble with. I have not followed the rebates here, but I think its somewhere around a 40% rebate when combined from state and federal. I agree from an economic perspective, without those rebates from the taxpayer, it won't pencil. Its pretty amazing the number of solar companies around here even in times like these. If you are correct, they are fooling an awful lot of people. I have heard pay back in as little as 10 years, but I am only going on hearsay.

 

[Loren49]

Just a little reality check. When I installed my first wind generator and stand alone system in 1983 I took advantage of some incentives. I was not given a direct payment but bth my federal and state tax liability off the year was reduced. Most of that system does not exist anymore (batteries long gone, inverter upgraded twice, old wind unit died) All of what I use now was purchased with my own after tax money as you anyone else would have purchased their "things". (solar panels, small wind units, voltage regulators, batteries, inverter/charger) The implication that most all renewable energy systems are subsidized with poor "tax payers" money is inaccurate. It is a fact that fossil fuel producers enjoy subsidies and tax breaks and are not responsible for all the damage they cause. (A current example in the nuclear industry is a tax funded cleanup of the damage caused by a private uranium mining operation) Privatize the profit....socialize the cleanup
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/u...lected-and-still-perilous.html?pagewanted=all

Anyone who believes that they have they have not seen financial benefit from products that are subsidized is quite naive.

The real key to saving money on energy is to quit wasting gas and electricity. More use, gas guzzlers and poorly insulated over sized homes is not directly correlated with a better standard of living and a higher level of happiness. I'm sure that I have actually spent more dollars per KWH of electric usage but I also predict that I have spent much less on energy overall as I have learned to live well while using much less energy.

Loren

 

[Egon]

Energy, types and supplies and different uses for that energy. All in a big pot and stirred.

I'm wondering how our energy usage breaks down into general classifications. Then one could start to redefine those classifications to see how alternate approaches would yield results but with less energy consumption. Might mean some big changes to the general classifications with completly different approaches, yes??

Think of most scarce priority resource and how the elimination of the flush toilet would change the usage and treatment of this resource.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Just note that if there is Global Warming and climate change the precipitation pattern's and Glacial Melt Water may have drastic changes.

Past Weather Pattern change evidence is readily available in many areas of the world with the presence of existing Tells. Satellite usage reveals more than probably imagined.:thumbsup:

Don't drink Spiked Coolaid. Never have a chance to observe the Pilot's prior to flight and would have no knowledge of how to determine their competency.

But I surely would be able to tell if I'd enjoy a Deadhead in the jump seat.:laughing:

 

[Redneck in training]

I plan to use solar heating for the shop regardless of incentives. When people ask me how can I justify it I ask how big is your wife's diamond. When I look in our office many if not most women have pretty nice diamond. I mean like 15K and up. Or just look at parking lot. How much people spend for cars?

 

[patrick_g]

You did not answer the question either. Amusing?

I answered the question. The answer is, "It depends." Since you are so easily amused by questions, answer this one. Just a yes or a no, do not quibble, equivocate, or hedge.

Have you stopped beating your wife in public?

Pat

 

[patrick_g]

I plan to use solar heating for the shop regardless of incentives. When people ask me how can I justify it I ask how big is your wife's diamond. When I look in our office many if not most women have pretty nice diamond. I mean like 15K and up. Or just look at parking lot. How much people spend for cars?

Lucky for you we still have a few personal freedoms left and you can heat your shop with solar if you want. Don't waste your time listening to folks who commute 50-100 miles or more a day in a "tank with rubber tires" who will gladly tell you to do as they say not as they do.

Pat

 

[Redneck in training]

I do a lot of jobs for Oil&Gas. Pretty much every large engineering company involved on such projects has research or system ready to be build and deployed for CO2 removal and storage. Most systems are compressor based liquefaction and underground re-injection. That tells me that CO2 percentage increase in air is perceived as future problem. There is money to be made.

 

[Rob-D]

Rob D.
You take yourself far to seriously and it is clear that you know more than anyone else on this forum. At least in you tiny mind. Get off your high horse, just because facts or figures don't agree with you, does not make them wrong.

Your big deal Self Contained electric plant is going to take more than 1 person just to keep it all working. Lie to me and everyone else if you like about how great it is. Quite frankly I will bet that if you look at it in a realistic light, it is 1 big pain in the Butt.

So nice that other folks, as in Tax payers paid for 30% of it for you. Glad to help you out. Since you are saving so much money and maybe sell some of your excess power to the power co. Pay Back that 30%, you can afford it.

Like most loons, you rant & rave about conspiracy.s by Big Oil, Fox news and most anyone that does not fit into Your Little Mold on how to live life and Save The Planet.

Don't worry about all the Lead & Acid in all your batteries, none of that hurts the environment.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ME!

Everyone who has kids is subsidized by the government. They get a tax break, single people don't get. Having 5 kids doesn't help anyone, the world isn't a better place for it but we all pay for that, don't we. Alternate energy helps people.

If someone spends 24k on a system they get 8k back, it still cost them 16k and like Ladia, I would do it ,and did do it, when there was no incentive. I saw high fuel prices coming years ago and did something about it, I hear people asking how they are going to pay for next years heat while they're buying new SUV's.

The planet is in trouble, pollution from coal, the major electricity producer in this country, has turned the oceans acidic, caused acid rain, dumped ,mercury and arsenic, etc. into the environment. We all pay for that with sickness and fish that have so much chlorinated hydrocarbons in them that doctors say don't eat too much tuna because of the mercury.

Effects of Acid Rain - Surface Waters and Aquatic Animals | Acid Rain | Clean Air Markets | US EPA

"Many lakes and streams examined in a National Surface Water Survey (NSWS) suffer from chronic acidity, a condition in which water has a constant low pH level. The survey investigated the effects of acidic deposition in over 1,000 lakes larger than 10 acres and in thousands of miles of streams believed to be sensitive to acidification. Of the lakes and streams surveyed, acid rain caused acidity in 75 percent of the acidic lakes and about 50 percent of the acidic streams. Several regions in the U.S. were identified as containing many of the surface waters sensitive to acidification. They include the Adirondacks and Catskill Mountains in New York state, the mid-Appalachian highlands along the east coast, the upper Midwest, and mountainous areas of the Western United States. In areas like the Northeastern United States, where soil-buffering capacity is poor, some lakes now have a pH value of less than 5. One of the most acidic lakes reported is Little Echo Pond in Franklin, New York. Little Echo Pond has a pH of 4.2."

It's not about me, Al Gore or anyone else, it's the environment, the environment that future generations NEED to survive!

I'm glad you know so much about Lead/ acid batteries but you're wrong.

Battery Recycling

"Lead-acid batteries are the environmental success story of our time. More than 97 percent of all battery lead is recycled. Compared to 55% of aluminum soft drink and beer cans, 45% of newspapers, 26% of glass bottles and 26% of tires, lead-acid batteries top the list of the most highly recycled consumer product."[/I]

Let's blame Rob for getting 30% back on his PV array, good idea!
I'm blaming you for the planet my family will inherit because you won't conserve energy.

Rob

Ps:
Little Echo Pond in Franklin NY is about 10 miles from my land, why should I pay because people don't want to conserve? Don't wantto force the energy companies and their lobbies from scrubbing coal stacks?

 

[houstonscott]

Rob D.
You take yourself far to seriously and it is clear that you know more than anyone else on this forum. At least in you tiny mind. Get off your high horse, just because facts or figures don't agree with you, does not make them wrong.

Your big deal Self Contained electric plant is going to take more than 1 person just to keep it all working. Lie to me and everyone else if you like about how great it is. Quite frankly I will bet that if you look at it in a realistic light, it is 1 big pain in the Butt.

So nice that other folks, as in Tax payers paid for 30% of it for you. Glad to help you out. Since you are saving so much money and maybe sell some of your excess power to the power co. Pay Back that 30%, you can afford it.

Like most loons, you rant & rave about conspiracy.s by Big Oil, Fox news and most anyone that does not fit into Your Little Mold on how to live life and Save The Planet.

Don't worry about all the Lead & Acid in all your batteries, none of that hurts the environment.

+1

You can't talk any real facts to these people, they have made this their religion. They want us to stop oil, gas, and coal production for pie in the sky alternative energy that doesn't exist and risk all our future lives, so they can see you live like them. They want you to believe the sky is falling so follow me, anyone familiar with 10-80-10. I see these people as the 10% that do the exact wrong thing in a crises and make it worse not better. The crises is invented but they fell for it. They have a long record stretching back to the 1960's. We know allot about physics and chemistry now, enough to know that a solar panel will not do the job, move on, if you want to pay for 25 years of electric power up front go ahead, leave me and 350 million Americans alone we will use gas, diesel, oil, coal, hydro, nuke, the things that work for another 1000 years, live longer better more healthy lives. All the things fossil fuels have brought us, life is good. It's free markets and capitalism that has made us rich enough to tackle environmental problems. Poor countries are the polluters, those who have to pick between eating tonight or not don't worry about their environment.

HS

 

[Rob-D]

+1

You can't talk any real facts to these people, they have made this their religion. They want us to stop oil, gas, and coal production for pie in the sky alternative energy that doesn't exist and risk all our future lives, so they can see you live like them. They want you to believe the sky is falling so follow me, anyone familiar with 10-80-10. I see these people as the 10% that do the exact wrong thing in a crises and make it worse not better. The crises is invented but they fell for it. They have a long record stretching back to the 1960's. We know allot about physics and chemistry now, enough to know that a solar panel will not do the job, move on, if you want to pay for 25 years of electric power up front go ahead, leave me and 350 million Americans alone we will use gas, diesel, oil, coal, hydro, nuke, the things that work for another 1000 years, live longer better more healthy lives. All the things fossil fuels have brought us, life is good. It's free markets and capitalism that has made us rich enough to tackle environmental problems. Poor countries are the polluters, those who have to pick between eating tonight or not don't worry about their environment.

HS

What facts? You didn't give us any facts, you gave us your opinion. PV doesn't work? How do you know, you don't know anything about it, only what you heard from some talk show host who couldn't find a cross in church if the Pope was holding his hand and a light from God was radiating through the stained glass.

Poor countries aren't the polluters!

Which country is the world's biggest polluter? | Pollution articles

"U.S. is currently the second biggest polluter in the world, but you also need to know that China has much more people compared to U.S. so if we look at the pollution per capita then US still leads the way as the world's largest polluter. Coal still generates around 50% of US electricity, and US transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy is anything but fast.

These two countries are the largest polluters in the world followed by Russia, India, and Japan."

Rob

 

[houstonscott]

What facts? You didn't give us any facts, you gave us your opinion. PV doesn't work? How do you know, you don't know anything about it, only what you heard from some talk show host who couldn't find a cross in church if the Pope was holding his hand and a light from God was radiating through the stained glass.

Poor countries aren't the polluters!

Which country is the world's biggest polluter? | Pollution articles

"U.S. is currently the second biggest polluter in the world if , but you also need to know that China has much more people compared to U.S. so if we look at the pollution per capita then US still leads the way as the world's largest polluter. Coal still generates around 50% of US electricity, and US transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy is anything but fast.

These two countries are the largest polluters in the world followed by Russia, India, and Japan."

Rob

Go read your own article. USA is number two polluter just over taken by China only measuring CO2 and then having to convert the number to a per capita comparison, how convent and distorted. Anyway your article only measures CO2, which I don't consider a pollutant. USA is one of the cleanest and safest places to work and live in the world. Get real. No one believes your so called facts written by idiots. It's like the UN and Iran investigating USA for human rights violation right after they behead someone for converting to christianity, get real. You wouldn't last 5 minutes in a place like India, China, or Russia if you were worried about pollution. Those places are truly polluted, whole industries exist that couldn't happen in the USA. Check out the NGC special about ship breakers and you will begin to see how absurd you sound. Not sure just how smart you think you are but your arguments are laughable.

HS

 

[crash325]

Go read your own article. USA is number two polluter just over taken by China only measuring CO2 and then having to convert the number to a per capita comparison, how convent and distorted. Anyway your article only measures CO2, which I don't consider a pollutant. USA is one of the cleanest and safest places to work and live in the world. Get real. No one believes your so called facts written by idiots. It's like the UN and Iran investigating USA for human rights violation right after they behead someone for converting to christianity, get real. You wouldn't last 5 minutes in a place like India, China, or Russia if you were worried about pollution. Those places are truly polluted, whole industries exist that couldn't happen in the USA. Check out the NGC special about ship breakers and you will begin to see how absurd you sound. Not sure just how smart you think you are but your arguments are laughable.

HS

The Greenies & Warmies don't or will not look at all the facts or story. Always pick out just the part they like and that's it. They seem to think if the pollution is happening some where else (because of what they are doing) it does not count.

I posted several links to look at, if they even looked or responded everything was taken out of context.

Phony's are phony's and Expert Phony's are the worst.

Rob D did not say anything about what it takes to keep his mess of "Clean" energy working. If he has everything he says, he's busier than a 1 legged man in a but kicking contest.

Those wonderful Wind Farms in S Cal. were lucky to keep 75% of the mills working. Most of the time it was more like about 1/2. That was when they were fairly new.

 

[Dan Hunter]

I wish Al Gore would announce soap and all phosphates are a toxin. Then one could, as was in the 60s, smell leftists coming and just ignore them as best one could.

Telling them Al Gore is a profiteer of the global warming lie is like telling them God doesn't exist. They've made their own deities and want you to worship with them.